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Author Topic: Oxygenator, oxygen generators, more facts to consider  (Read 4298 times)

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Tony Tony

Oxygenator, oxygen generators, more facts to consider
« on: November 23, 2010, 07:20:15 AM »

I was reciently searching for more information about oxygenating boat livewells, not old fashion aeration and ran across this 2009 thread... "Shouldn't an Oxygenator be standard equipment?"

Here's more information about oxygenators that I ran across in my quest for more knowledge about oxygenating livewells:

Aqua Innovations Oxygenator™, an electrolysis device (electrolysis for freshwater use only). This small D/C battery operated electrical device breaks down fresh water molecules into pure hydrogen gas, pure oxygen gas and hydroxyl ions.  If the livewell water contains any salt, chlorine gas is always produced. It has no moving parts, makes no noise and requires maintenance with special equipment after each use. Everything dies in the livewell if a live support oxygen system fails to produce enough oxygen (delivery volume) in high concentrations (100% oxygen gas)) . Water electrolysis produces some pure oxygen and twice as much pure hydrogen,  1:2 ratio respectively. The little amount of oxygen it does generate is not regulated or controlled by the fisherman. The volume of oxygen delivered is strictly regulated, controlled by a thermometer that measures livewell  water temperature. The amount of oxygen produced has nothing to do with the  volume and concentration of dissolved oxygen required and necessary to meet and sustain the minimal biological oxygen demand for 8-10 hours of intensive transport captivity coupled with maximum physiological and psychological fish stress in summer tournament.

The little electrolyzer is cheap, about the cost of a water pump or air compressor. Electrolyzing water does produce a tiny amount of pure oxygen so technically it does qualify on paper as an "oxygen generating system," the vital sales point.

Some questions an informed consumer should ask and answer:

Because most fishing catch and release tournaments are usually held in the summer, is this life-support electrolysis oxygen generator absolutely dependable in the summer when low oxygen concentrations are normally major fish care problems?

Is this life support oxygen system dependable and reliable? The equipment must always produce, maintain and sustain minimal dissolved oxygen saturations (100% - 175% DO saturation) in a bass boat livewell , tournament weigh-in holding tank, release boat transport tanks containing a limit many limits of tournament bass (15-27 lbs fish or 400 lbs of live fish) in July/August tournaments all day long. 

The physiological and psychological stress impact of transporting live bait and tournament gamefish in water that's actively being exposed to sustained low electrical current in water unknown, out of sight and out of mind.

The hallmark sales point is: the Oxygenator ™ makes pure oxygen, period.

Know the facts. Expect very limited pure oxygen production and low dissolved oxygen (DO) concentrations every summer because this unit is   controlled and cycled on and off strictly by livewell water temperature. When the unit is new and functioning correctly the volume of oxygen delivery may satisfy the  biological oxygen demand for a fish in the livewell in cold winter months (water temperature 40 F - 65 F).  Failure to generate enough oxygen is a seasonal problem like aeration, often exhibiting every summer when the surface water temperature reaches 75 F - 85 F. Like all mechanical aeration and water pumps, you cannot control the dose or volume of oxygen delivered nor can you control the livewell DO saturation with this device regardless of the BOD. Water pumps pump water and air pumps pump air... air and water is not oxygen irregardless of how much you pump.

A water temperature sensor (the brain of the electrolyzer is a thermometer) cycles the unit on and off intermittently, the amount of oxygen that's generated is strictly controlled by livewell water temperature. Add ice to cool the water and the unit cycles less generating  less oxygen whether the well contains 1  three pound fish or 10 five pound fish. Unlike standard professional fish transporters dissolved oxygen standards for transport protocol, the biological oxygen demand (BOD) is not a consideration for oxygen production and is of no concern with this device. You can not make any adjustments to the unit nor can you increase the volume of oxygen the unit produces and delivers which exposed an extremely limiting water quality factor like you've experience with mechanical aeration.

O2 saturation rate: The sales literature proudly boasts that the  Oxygenator will generate 80% dissolved oxygen in 20 minutes or less [that's with no bait or fish in the livewell consuming oxygen]. This sounds great, right? The truth is a bit slippery  because  most standard boat mechanical aerators achieve these saturations easily in cold water. Even Mr. or Ms. Bubbles air pumps can and will achieve 60% - 80% DO saturation under the same conditions in 30 - 40 seconds in cold water devoid of fish. Add a bait or a fish into the livewell and the dissolve oxygen saturation drops precipitously to chronic hypoxemic saturations. Bait, fish and bacteria consume oxygen, more fish require more oxygen in the summer. A mechanical aerator may be more efficient if any oxygen generator fails to deliver enough oxygen in high concentrations; chronic oxygen deprivation with mechanical aeration in the summer is well known by all fishermen trying to keep bait and fish alive and healthy during summer tournament transport captivity... sustained acute and chronic oxygen deprivation often results in dead, and dieing fish and lethargic sloppy red-nose bait better suited for catfish and crab bait. A major factor causing delayed tournament mortality in summer C-R fishing tournaments.

Aqua Innovations Oxygenator™ is not dose adjustable regardless of the biological oxygen demand (BOD) and stocking density in your livewell. These units require electricity, 2 AA batteries or 12 volt DC current, some units require daily maintenance after each use, new units are advertised maintenance free.

Note that hydrogen does combine with other elements (metabolic waste)  to form very noxious and toxic hydrogen sulfide that becomes corrosive when exposed to salt, (hydrogen chloride).

Electrolyzing water containing salt is the standard industrial method for commercially producing pure hydrogen, an explosive fuel gas and the by-products oxygen gas, a potent oxidizer and chlorine gas, also an explosive gas that is toxic to tournament fish, live bait and people. Chlorine gas bubbles are visualized  around the emitter as small greenish-yellow color gas bubbles.

Electrolyzing salt water or water containing bait saver and fish saver chemicals that contain salt will produces chlorine gas that can injure and kill Catch & Release tournament gamefish and live bait.   

They are not clear bubbles seen with air, oxygen, hydrogen, carbon dioxide or helium gas.  It is essential that you KNOW beyond any doubt whether a livewell chemical or additive contains salt compounds if you choose to use the Oxygenator™.  Most livewell chemicals do contain salt that regulates osmoregulation.

If any livewell chemical manufacture refuses to  provide a complete list of ingredients of their product for you upon direct request and you are unsure if the product contains any salt compounds, DO NOT USE THE PRODUCT with electrolysis. All fish saver and bait saver livewell chemicals contain salt.

If ever in doubt if a livewell chemical contains salt, taste it/ It's easy to determine if the livewell chemical contains any salt. CAUTION: Many livewell chemical manufacturers claim their fish saver livewell chemicals consist of "food grade" ingredients and may me used on food fish although many of these products are clearly not FDA approved for use on food fish and should never be used on food fish. Tournament catch and release gamefish are food fish for many fishermen.

 The Oxygenator™ instructions boldly state: 

DO NOT USE THIS DEVICE IN saltwater LIVEWELLS OR BAIT TANKS and DO NOT USE SALT OR ANY LIVEWELL CHEMICALS or LIVEWELL WATER CONDITIONERS THAT CONTAIN SALT.

Caution: The gas space between a closed livewell lid and the water surface can become enriched (24% oxygen) with oxygen, pure hydrogen gas (a fuel gas like acetylene and propane) and pure chlorine gas (an explosive gas) if the water contains any salt or livewell products that contain salt.  Incorporate a potential ignition source (wires with live electricity to run the unit) in the livewell, and a potential fire and explosion hazard may exist.

Aqua Innovations  Oxygenator™ sales literature claims that this unit will generate up to 80% DO saturation in 20 minutes in freshwater livewells that contain no fish or bait.  Just what does that mean? Any good mechanical aerator, Mr. Bubbles or livewell water pump can generate 80% dissolved oxygen concentrations with air, with no fish in the livewell in less than 2 minutes.   Cost $50.00 - $325.00

The U2 and Salt Water U2 livewell additives are the only additives recommended for safe use with the Oxygenator™ by the manufacture. The literature stated the formula contains essential electrolytes.

What are "essential electrolytes?" "Electrolyte solutions are normally formed when a salt is placed into a solvent..."

"In physiology, the primary ions of electrolytes are sodium(Na+), potassium (K+), calcium (Ca2+), magnesium (Mg2+), chloride (Cl−), hydrogen phosphate (HPO42−), and hydrogen carbonate (HCO3−)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolyte

At $20 a pop for 16 oz of U2 or Salt Water U2 plus shipping and tax, this hidden operational cost is a "silent sleeper." This is an operational cost that may far exceed the initial price of the oxygenator unit over a fishing season which must be considered.  IF you run out of U2 or Salt Water U2, is the Oxygenator ™ safe to operate if the livewell water contains any electrolytes?

The whole point may may be the ongoing sales of the U2 livewell treatment vs. other livewell additives like Please Release Me and Rejuvinade. 

http://www.oxyedge-chum.com/o2_system_comparisons.htm

There's a lot more to these different oxygen system than first meets the eye, that's for sure.

I went to the oxygenator website and spoke to oxygenator salesmen and non of them mentioned anything about fire safety when dealig with pure oxygen which leads me to question whether the oxygenator really puts out enough oxygen to even be consideres "oxygen enrichment or 24% oxygen." After all, air contains 21% % oxygen and 79% nitrogen which is only 3% less than oxygen enrichment.

I friend of mine who is a tournament director actually tested the dissolved oxygen concentration is a tournament boat last summer and smiled when I ask him how much oxygen was in the livewell with the oxygenator running and a limit of fish in the well... he just smiled and said, "nothing like what you would expect..."

Have any of you guys ever actually tested the  dissolved oxygen concentration in a boat livewell full of tournament fish in the summer? I would really be interested to knon how much dissolved oxygen you measured.

I would like to see some real science to back up all the testimonials and advertisements about oxygenators.

Good fishing fellows.

T




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Re: Oxygenator, oxygen generators, more facts to consider
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2010, 07:32:01 AM »

I was reciently searching for more information about oxygenating boat livewells, not old fashion aeration and ran across this 2009 thread... "Shouldn't an Oxygenator be standard equipment?"

Here's more information about oxygenators that I ran across in my quest for more knowledge about oxygenating livewells:

Aqua Innovations Oxygenator™, an electrolysis device (electrolysis for freshwater use only). This small D/C battery operated electrical device breaks down fresh water molecules into pure hydrogen gas, pure oxygen gas and hydroxyl ions.  If the livewell water contains any salt, chlorine gas is always produced. It has no moving parts, makes no noise and requires maintenance with special equipment after each use. Everything dies in the livewell if a live support oxygen system fails to produce enough oxygen (delivery volume) in high concentrations (100% oxygen gas)) . Water electrolysis produces some pure oxygen and twice as much pure hydrogen,  1:2 ratio respectively. The little amount of oxygen it does generate is not regulated or controlled by the fisherman. The volume of oxygen delivered is strictly regulated, controlled by a thermometer that measures livewell  water temperature. The amount of oxygen produced has nothing to do with the  volume and concentration of dissolved oxygen required and necessary to meet and sustain the minimal biological oxygen demand for 8-10 hours of intensive transport captivity coupled with maximum physiological and psychological fish stress in summer tournament.

The little electrolyzer is cheap, about the cost of a water pump or air compressor. Electrolyzing water does produce a tiny amount of pure oxygen so technically it does qualify on paper as an "oxygen generating system," the vital sales point.

Some questions an informed consumer should ask and answer:

Because most fishing catch and release tournaments are usually held in the summer, is this life-support electrolysis oxygen generator absolutely dependable in the summer when low oxygen concentrations are normally major fish care problems?

Is this life support oxygen system dependable and reliable? The equipment must always produce, maintain and sustain minimal dissolved oxygen saturations (100% - 175% DO saturation) in a bass boat livewell , tournament weigh-in holding tank, release boat transport tanks containing a limit many limits of tournament bass (15-27 lbs fish or 400 lbs of live fish) in July/August tournaments all day long. 

The physiological and psychological stress impact of transporting live bait and tournament gamefish in water that's actively being exposed to sustained low electrical current in water unknown, out of sight and out of mind.

The hallmark sales point is: the Oxygenator ™ makes pure oxygen, period.

Know the facts. Expect very limited pure oxygen production and low dissolved oxygen (DO) concentrations every summer because this unit is   controlled and cycled on and off strictly by livewell water temperature. When the unit is new and functioning correctly the volume of oxygen delivery may satisfy the  biological oxygen demand for a fish in the livewell in cold winter months (water temperature 40 F - 65 F).  Failure to generate enough oxygen is a seasonal problem like aeration, often exhibiting every summer when the surface water temperature reaches 75 F - 85 F. Like all mechanical aeration and water pumps, you cannot control the dose or volume of oxygen delivered nor can you control the livewell DO saturation with this device regardless of the BOD. Water pumps pump water and air pumps pump air... air and water is not oxygen irregardless of how much you pump.

A water temperature sensor (the brain of the electrolyzer is a thermometer) cycles the unit on and off intermittently, the amount of oxygen that's generated is strictly controlled by livewell water temperature. Add ice to cool the water and the unit cycles less generating  less oxygen whether the well contains 1  three pound fish or 10 five pound fish. Unlike standard professional fish transporters dissolved oxygen standards for transport protocol, the biological oxygen demand (BOD) is not a consideration for oxygen production and is of no concern with this device. You can not make any adjustments to the unit nor can you increase the volume of oxygen the unit produces and delivers which exposed an extremely limiting water quality factor like you've experience with mechanical aeration.

O2 saturation rate: The sales literature proudly boasts that the  Oxygenator will generate 80% dissolved oxygen in 20 minutes or less [that's with no bait or fish in the livewell consuming oxygen]. This sounds great, right? The truth is a bit slippery  because  most standard boat mechanical aerators achieve these saturations easily in cold water. Even Mr. or Ms. Bubbles air pumps can and will achieve 60% - 80% DO saturation under the same conditions in 30 - 40 seconds in cold water devoid of fish. Add a bait or a fish into the livewell and the dissolve oxygen saturation drops precipitously to chronic hypoxemic saturations. Bait, fish and bacteria consume oxygen, more fish require more oxygen in the summer. A mechanical aerator may be more efficient if any oxygen generator fails to deliver enough oxygen in high concentrations; chronic oxygen deprivation with mechanical aeration in the summer is well known by all fishermen trying to keep bait and fish alive and healthy during summer tournament transport captivity... sustained acute and chronic oxygen deprivation often results in dead, and dieing fish and lethargic sloppy red-nose bait better suited for catfish and crab bait. A major factor causing delayed tournament mortality in summer C-R fishing tournaments.

Aqua Innovations Oxygenator™ is not dose adjustable regardless of the biological oxygen demand (BOD) and stocking density in your livewell. These units require electricity, 2 AA batteries or 12 volt DC current, some units require daily maintenance after each use, new units are advertised maintenance free.

Note that hydrogen does combine with other elements (metabolic waste)  to form very noxious and toxic hydrogen sulfide that becomes corrosive when exposed to salt, (hydrogen chloride).

Electrolyzing water containing salt is the standard industrial method for commercially producing pure hydrogen, an explosive fuel gas and the by-products oxygen gas, a potent oxidizer and chlorine gas, also an explosive gas that is toxic to tournament fish, live bait and people. Chlorine gas bubbles are visualized  around the emitter as small greenish-yellow color gas bubbles.

Electrolyzing salt water or water containing bait saver and fish saver chemicals that contain salt will produces chlorine gas that can injure and kill Catch & Release tournament gamefish and live bait.   

They are not clear bubbles seen with air, oxygen, hydrogen, carbon dioxide or helium gas.  It is essential that you KNOW beyond any doubt whether a livewell chemical or additive contains salt compounds if you choose to use the Oxygenator™.  Most livewell chemicals do contain salt that regulates osmoregulation.

If any livewell chemical manufacture refuses to  provide a complete list of ingredients of their product for you upon direct request and you are unsure if the product contains any salt compounds, DO NOT USE THE PRODUCT with electrolysis. All fish saver and bait saver livewell chemicals contain salt.

If ever in doubt if a livewell chemical contains salt, taste it/ It's easy to determine if the livewell chemical contains any salt. CAUTION: Many livewell chemical manufacturers claim their fish saver livewell chemicals consist of "food grade" ingredients and may me used on food fish although many of these products are clearly not FDA approved for use on food fish and should never be used on food fish. Tournament catch and release gamefish are food fish for many fishermen.

 The Oxygenator™ instructions boldly state: 

DO NOT USE THIS DEVICE IN saltwater LIVEWELLS OR BAIT TANKS and DO NOT USE SALT OR ANY LIVEWELL CHEMICALS or LIVEWELL WATER CONDITIONERS THAT CONTAIN SALT.

Caution: The gas space between a closed livewell lid and the water surface can become enriched (24% oxygen) with oxygen, pure hydrogen gas (a fuel gas like acetylene and propane) and pure chlorine gas (an explosive gas) if the water contains any salt or livewell products that contain salt.  Incorporate a potential ignition source (wires with live electricity to run the unit) in the livewell, and a potential fire and explosion hazard may exist.

Aqua Innovations  Oxygenator™ sales literature claims that this unit will generate up to 80% DO saturation in 20 minutes in freshwater livewells that contain no fish or bait.  Just what does that mean? Any good mechanical aerator, Mr. Bubbles or livewell water pump can generate 80% dissolved oxygen concentrations with air, with no fish in the livewell in less than 2 minutes.   Cost $50.00 - $325.00

The U2 and Salt Water U2 livewell additives are the only additives recommended for safe use with the Oxygenator™ by the manufacture. The literature stated the formula contains essential electrolytes.

What are "essential electrolytes?" "Electrolyte solutions are normally formed when a salt is placed into a solvent..."

"In physiology, the primary ions of electrolytes are sodium(Na+), potassium (K+), calcium (Ca2+), magnesium (Mg2+), chloride (Cl−), hydrogen phosphate (HPO42−), and hydrogen carbonate (HCO3−)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolyte

At $20 a pop for 16 oz of U2 or Salt Water U2 plus shipping and tax, this hidden operational cost is a "silent sleeper." This is an operational cost that may far exceed the initial price of the oxygenator unit over a fishing season which must be considered.  IF you run out of U2 or Salt Water U2, is the Oxygenator ™ safe to operate if the livewell water contains any electrolytes?

The whole point may may be the ongoing sales of the U2 livewell treatment vs. other livewell additives like Please Release Me and Rejuvinade. 

http://www.oxyedge-chum.com/o2_system_comparisons.htm

There's a lot more to these different oxygen system than first meets the eye, that's for sure.

I went to the oxygenator website and spoke to oxygenator salesmen and non of them mentioned anything about fire safety when dealig with pure oxygen which leads me to question whether the oxygenator really puts out enough oxygen to even be consideres "oxygen enrichment or 24% oxygen." After all, air contains 21% % oxygen and 79% nitrogen which is only 3% less than oxygen enrichment.

I friend of mine who is a tournament director actually tested the dissolved oxygen concentration is a tournament boat last summer and smiled when I ask him how much oxygen was in the livewell with the oxygenator running and a limit of fish in the well... he just smiled and said, "nothing like what you would expect..."

Have any of you guys ever actually tested the  dissolved oxygen concentration in a boat livewell full of tournament fish in the summer? I would really be interested to knon how much dissolved oxygen you measured.

I would like to see some real science to back up all the testimonials and advertisements about oxygenators.

Good fishing fellows.

T






What works even better is taking 20 twisty straws that were won from playing countless games of Ski-ball at Chucky Cheese's; glue them together and you can sit there in the drivers seat while you blow bubbles into the livewell - "Shouldn't a bunch of straws, glue, and a Pez dispenser be standard equipment?"

Try toning down the pitch a bit and I'm sure it will be better received; on a more serious note and without sacrasm can you give us information on Oxygenator Systems for transport tanks in Live-Release boats?  300-400 gallon divided to be specific - any insight or information would be appreciated.
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Tony Tony

Re: Oxygenator, oxygen generators, more facts to consider
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2010, 07:30:01 AM »

What works even better is taking 20 twisty straws that were won from playing countless games of Ski-ball at Chucky Cheese's; glue them together and you can sit there in the drivers seat while you blow bubbles into the livewell - "Shouldn't a bunch of straws, glue, and a Pez dispenser be standard equipment?"
Quote

This is good as standard equipment, this statement represents a standard common mentality and standard attitudeds commonly seen in this business... this is just a typical meaningless, silly response. OK - you spank me for thinking outloud, stating facts and asking questions, participating on this forum.

... on a more serious note and without sacrasm can you give us information on Oxygenator Systems for transport tanks in Live-Release boats?  300-400 gallon divided to be specific - any insight or information would be appreciated.
Quote

Sure, here's specific insite for you're 300-400 tank... you had a great idea about the straws and you can also get all the straws you want FREE at Mc Donald's or DQ on tournament day, that's much cheaper than an air pump or water pumps... flower and water makes good glue and it cheap too.

Actually it's cheaper and much less trouble just to have kill tournaments and a fish fry after the weigh-in and just cut the C&R farce.

Enjoy your Turkey today. No sarcasm intended.

Cheers
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Re: Oxygenator, oxygen generators, more facts to consider
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2010, 08:12:54 AM »

I have seen this thread on almost every fishing site.   I miss going to Chucky Cheese.   
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Re: Oxygenator, oxygen generators, more facts to consider
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2010, 04:27:37 PM »

Seems like I should charge for posts that exceed a certain number of words...?? What do you think ;D
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Help stop invasive spcies. Don't move fish between unconnected bodies of water. Clean, drain and dry your boat before launching on another water body.
Unless clearly stated as such, opinions expressed by Dan Kimmel on this forum are not the opinions or policies of The Bass Federation of Michigan.

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Re: Oxygenator, oxygen generators, more facts to consider
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2010, 08:39:53 PM »

Too verbose to post, but why isn't cost, coast? Oh, oh walleyed again. Muskbe I'm confusing my poast, but I do so enjoy it with my morning coffie.
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Re: Oxygenator, oxygen generators, more facts to consider
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2010, 04:45:09 PM »

Didn't you teach English??
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