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Author Topic: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths  (Read 22339 times)

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Dan

Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2009, 11:41:31 AM »

It's been my experience that it is very easy to tell if an angler is lying. Just watch their lips. If they're moving they're lying.  ;)
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UAWBigDog

Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2009, 08:15:09 PM »

The term "drowned river mouth" is not used in the law! There are only drowned river mouth lakes listed by name. Those lakes are affected by the law. Streams are also affected. The stream ends where the lake begins and vice verse. Marshy river delta flats with fluctuating water levels might lead to a more subjective interpretation. Nobody has yet mentioned such a waterway in this discussion.

Many of us have had to observe an off limits in the Clinton River at Harley because of the fish release area. The typical description from tournament officials is "point to point". That would seem to apply to almost all lakes and streams for the purpose of enforcing the gear restriction laws. I could easily point to the transition from the Huron River into Kent Lake, but Hades Creek into Hiland Lake might be a little tricky. I suspect officers and courts would understand this when enforcing the law. It might help to know the specific intersection to which you are referring. 8)

I appreciate that you have had a lot of input in this thread.  However, you have no conclusive reference except to the law that has been printed.  In other words, the law is open to interpretation depending on who is reading it.  I actually don't fish the dropshot much.  When I started this thread, my intent was to find out how everyone interpreted the law.  I fully understand what you are trying to say here, but I was looking for more fact based interpretations, not opinions.  Using the term "marshy river deltas" now brings the St. Clair River into the discussion.  After all, the St. Clair River delta has fluctuating water levels also, depending on how the wind is blowing.  Now we all know that the dropshot can be fished in the St. Clair River delta, that is why I was looking for more fact based data and not opinions.  If you read back into my original posting, I was inquiring about facts, not opinions.  So far, the only fact is the actual law that was printed here in this thread, however, all laws are open to interpretation by those reading them as I have already indicated.  The task at hand here seems to be asking the MDNR what their interpretation is.  At that point, we can say what is what. 

Tournament officials interpret the law the way they want to as you and I interpret the law the way we want to.  I would not take a tournament directors word on this as gospel. 

I will be asking the MDNR at the show what they mean and how they interpret that law.  I will try to post their answer.  We all may encounter a different MDNR officer at their table at the show.  This will be a great test for them to see if they are all on the same page.  It has been my experience that they aren't quite sure of interpretations on different issues either. 

On another point, the Hot Pond down in Monroe (Plum Creek) could be considered a drowned river/creek mouth.  Does that mean the dropshot is illegal in the Hot Pond???? 

I realize that this is a very controversial thread.  My intent is not to upset anyone.  My intent is to find out what everyone knows about this law and challenge us all as expert fishermen to know the laws as they are written.  So therefore our intent as fishermen should be to find out what the real deal is on this law.  It is still vague and open to interpretation.   ;)


BD          ;D
« Last Edit: January 03, 2009, 08:18:30 PM by UAWBigDog »
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Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2009, 07:47:02 PM »

First off, I am an AVID drop shot fisherman.  This technique has won me a lot of tournaments and good money over the last several years.  Therefore I've done some investigating.

As an aside... I've asked a couple different CO's about drop shotting in these restricted waters and they both said it was not legal, but that given the fact that this law is really designed to stop anglers from snagging salmon/steelhead/coho as they run the lakes and up the rivers they would not cite a bass fisherman for using the drop shot.  Does that make drop shotting a lake like Muskegon or White legal?  No, certainly not.  But this is why it is legal to fish the drop shot on lakes like Croton and Hardy Pond even though they are part of the Muskegon river.  No salmon.  But it makes it illegal to use the drop shot in any tournament that includes in it's rules that all local and state laws must be followed (which is every tourney I know!).

As for where does the river end and the lake start seems pretty cut and dry to me... even on some of the questionable lakes.  If you think you may be fishing in the restricted water you probably are.

As for the west side drowned river mouths (Musk, White, etc...) the lake ENDS at the pier heads per the same two CO's mentioned above.

If you read the above quotes from the Regs. it does have one flaw as I see it.  It simply says you may not have a weight suspended below any hook unless the hook is on an un-weighted line which is at least 3 inches long.  Is a jig considered a weight or a lure?  If you have a jig on the bottom and a drop shot hook up the line are you breaking the law???  This is THE question I will be posing to the next CO I talk to.  I have tried this method several times and have caught bass on both lures while doing so.  Haven't come up with a double yet, but I'm hoping for it!!
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UAWBigDog

Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2009, 10:56:54 PM »

My apologies to UAW big dog. The DNR fishing guide contains a blatant and confusing edit!

Drop-shotting: Having a weight suspended below a hook that is tied directly to the main fishing line. This gear may be used on inland
lakes, Great Lakes, and Great Lakes connecting waters only. This
gear may not be used on rivers, streams, or drowned river mouths
(see Note 3, p. 8 for listing).


It should read "drowned river mouth lakes", just as it does in Note 3 and in the law as written. I should have proofread the fishing guide, too, knowing how our DNR can complicate things! It is safe to say they screwed it up. There is no such thing as a "drowned river mouth" as it relates to the law. Now I know what you were referencing.

Waterfoul,

You are onto something! I always wondered about the rig a certain pro was using in Michigan before drop-shotting became legal. The rig was even described during a television broadcast as I recall. That's why I mentioned the foul-hooked fish issue earlier. Getting tournament directors to enforce the rule requiring legal fishing methods and getting the DNR to define grey areas have always been concerns for tournament anglers. Is this a slippery slope? 8)

ebond,
Now you are getting what I mean.  See there are "drown river mouths" and "drown river mouth lakes".  These are two entirely different environments.  A "drown rivermouth lake" is a lake that comes before a river...........like Muskegon, White Lake, etc. as written in the regs.  Now a "drown rivermouth" is an entirely different creature as how I interpret this.  So how far out is the drown river mouth???  Where does it start???  So what I was saying is you can not fish in front of the mouth of the Huron River in Erie, but how far out???   That is the whole confusing thing about this reg.  Waterfoul puts a pretty good perspective on this by indicating that this was so that salmonoid snagging does not occur.  They keep in blatantly confusing so that they can prosecute to the full extent of the law which would probably be a pretty hefty ticket.  So by how the MDNR wrote this..........."should it say drown rivermouth lakes" or not.  They say or not because they can get you in both areas where salmonoids migrate to rivers to spawn.  Apology accepted.    :D     ;)     8)


BD                ;D
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UAWBigDog

Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2009, 04:57:53 AM »

Don't try to interpret it. It is a typo. They flubbed. Bad editing. Now only us GLB forum readers are clear on the subject. The DNR may appreciate being notified of the confusion, or may not. 8)

Is it a typo????...........or bad editing.........or did they do this on purpose.  Perhaps we'll never know...............until someone gets one of those hefty citations................   ;)   I have read that dumb ordinance, reg, whatever, so many times I could probably now be a self proclaimed expert on the matter.  ::)          RRRRRIIIIIIGGGGGGHHHHTTTTT!!!!!!!

BD           ;D
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Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2009, 07:17:11 PM »

Big Dog... Slippery is right!!!

And as I understand it... the river ENDS at the line from point to point.... outside the points it is now the LAKE.  This comes to me by simple difinition.  A river has defined banks and moving water.  A lake has defined banks an non-moving water.
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Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2009, 09:44:55 PM »

the guide is not the law. the LAW is the law and specifically states the drowned river mouths are a specific list of lakes. While the guide does add to the confusion, it is not the official verbiage that a court would be required to adhere to.
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Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2009, 08:23:21 PM »

Does anyone really thing a drop shotting offense would ever end up in court?  For that matter... has anyone ever known anyone who's been cited for drop shotting in those drowned river mouths???  I don't.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 08:29:11 PM by Waterfoul »
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Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2009, 08:52:37 PM »

my  concern was not being able to use it on Muskegon lake during a tournament.  i would probably use it fun fishing but would not want to get DQ'd or Protested.. 
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Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2009, 08:39:38 AM »

my  concern was not being able to use it on Muskegon lake during a tournament.  i would probably use it fun fishing but would not want to get DQ'd or Protested.. 

Agreed, and this is why I brought up the jig at the bottom system as Muskegon is where I've been experimenting with it.  It's also why I bought the 3" perch rigs.  I'm still playing with this one but I think it will work and be legal.  Drop shotting is a huge part of my tournament arsenal and I hate being without it.  I fish several tournyes on both Muskegon and White Lake so you can see my concern!!
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UAWBigDog

Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2009, 01:05:07 PM »

Big Dog... Slippery is right!!!

And as I understand it... the river ENDS at the line from point to point.... outside the points it is now the LAKE.  This comes to me by simple difinition.  A river has defined banks and moving water.  A lake has defined banks an non-moving water.

I agree with that however some would say that the river starts at the outer buoys.  I believe that this is so vague and over compensated for that the judges can't rule on it.  I hope no one ever has to go to court on this...........or gets a citation so they would have to appear in court.  Too vague, too wordy, too confusing, too unclear.  Laws have to written clear and concise in my opinion.  That is why I started this post.  To find out how everyone interprets this thing.  Again, too vague, too wordy, too confusing, and too unclear.   :o

the guide is not the law. the LAW is the law and specifically states the drowned river mouths are a specific list of lakes. While the guide does add to the confusion, it is not the official verbiage that a court would be required to adhere to.

No it doesn't.  It lists drown river mouth lakes, but also talks of drowned river mouths as entrances to rivers.  These are two different things.  Please read this again very, very, very carefully because I thought the samething you did.  Now when I started researching this over a year ago I found out that drown river mouths and drown river mouth lakes are two entirely different things.  And the guide is not the law.  It is a set of "guidelines" to follow and nothing more.  My lawyer who is an avid fisherman has helped me understand this.  And he has taken it to his judge friends that he has been in front of during is law career.  I have a wealth of knowledge and resources and your right these judges don't clearly understand this thing either.  Too vague, too wordy, too confusing, too unclear.  That is pretty much what these men have said.  So you decide.

Does anyone really think a drop shotting offense would ever end up in court?  For that matter... has anyone ever known anyone who's been cited for drop shotting in those drowned river mouths???  I don't.

To answer the first question I would say I hope not.  The next question is great.  Does anyone on the board know if there as been anyone cited for this offense while fishing for bass???  Please speak up.  We all would love to hear from you and tell us of your experiences.

Peace out my bassfishing brothers!!!!!     8)

BD         ;D
« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 01:20:57 PM by UAWBigDog »
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Durand Dan

Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2009, 03:51:24 PM »

  ;D
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Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2009, 05:32:40 PM »

 ;D ;D ;D LMAO  !
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UAWBigDog

Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2009, 08:41:21 PM »

  ;D

What are you trying to tell me here Dan???? ;D

Anyway I did talk to the MDNR at the show and there is a difference and meant to be a difference between drown river mouths and drown river mouth lakes just as I thought.  Now I have to contact the fisheries division to clarify one other question I had as to where the drown river mouth starts.  We seem to already be clear here on drown river mouth lakes.  I will post that when I get that answer.

Durand Dan............what are you trying to tell me here????  The horse isn't dead yet!!!!   :o

BD      ;D
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UAWBigDog

Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2009, 06:07:38 PM »

My reference is a MDNR officer at the Ultimate Fishing Show who told me that they are two different things.  He defined a drowned river mouth as just a river mouth where the lake meets the river and a drowned river mouth lake as a lake at the mouth of a river.  He even pulled out a regulation book and explained the difference in great detail.  He seemed to be pretty knowledgable on the subject.  He did however indicate that no bassfisherman has been cited to this day.   

Remember that laws and ordinances as well as MDNR Regulations are open to interpretation.  That is why we have lawyers and judges.........and he said that too.  If it was all cut and dry, we wouldn't be discussing this issue on the board.  Remember, too vague, too confusing, too unclear, too many words.   8)

BD           ;D         
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LGMOUTH

Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2009, 06:41:50 PM »

Not to change the subject but since we are talking about the law and fishing then I have to bring up this question. Here is a line from one of the posts that caught my eye.

Rivers, it shall be unlawful to use the following gear during the period August 1 May 31:
1. Multi-pointed hooks exceeding 3/8 inch between point and shank and/or single pointed hooks exceeding inch between point and shank;

Does this mean that if you use a extrawide gap hook on the St clair river or any other river for that matter illegal after august 1st. Or am I reading it wrong which is very likely.
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UAWBigDog

Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2009, 08:14:15 PM »

UAW,

That's why we don't ask those guys to explain the laws they are told to enforce. It sounds like complete fabrication! If it is not written, it is hearsay. Thanks for proving my theory! 8)

ebond,

Are you a lawyer???  If you are, I want you to defend me in a court of law if I get a citation for fishing a dropshot in front of the Clinton River can 3 depending of course how far out the drown river mouth is at can 3.  I always catch a 5lber there at the end of the day fishing Wayne's St. Clair Craw (free ad for Wayne) dropshot tube on a drop shot rig.  Usually I can usually upgrade my bag a couple of pounds.  Put me in the money last year a couple of times.   

I wonder if I will be disqualified in a tournament for getting a citation for fishing a dropshot there and getting a citation???  Would you care to answer that Counselor???? 

BD            ;D   
« Last Edit: January 12, 2009, 08:17:18 PM by UAWBigDog »
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motocross269

Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2009, 09:45:45 PM »

Holy Crap    :o......You guys need to go fishing BADDDDDD!!!!!.....C'mon soft water....

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UAWBigDog

Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2009, 09:10:19 PM »

Laws are never plainly stated and I have never seen one plainly stated.  And when they are........it is a mistake.  They are always open to interpretation.............. 8)

BD          ;D
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Got Fish??

Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2009, 07:25:48 PM »

  Hey  BigDog, Lets dropshot. what ya say you dropdown to my place and do a shot.
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