I've heard people are getting tickets at the Hot Ponds for catching and releasing bass. The DNR has always claimed the reason we have any seasonal retractions on catching bass is to protect the spawn. However we now have a catch and release season on bass during the spawning season. What possible reason could the DNR have for ticketing people that are catching and releasing bass prior to the official opening of catch and release season other than to raise revenue?
Haven't heard of anyone getting a ticket, be interesting to hear from someone who got one. I'd like to know how they could prove intent to catch bass since any bass caught could be "incidental" to fishing for other things. I'd be intersted in hearing what the officer had to say when handing that one over.
Nice to see you around here, binkwood. Lightning's still running like a scalded dog... ;D
KenB
I would venture to say because it is the law??
Quote from: jcox7 on April 14, 2011, 02:04:02 PM
I would venture to say because it is the law??
Exactly (like it or not)! And since not much else is open right now it would be pretty hard to say you were not targeting bass or another out-of-season species. Unless you only had a cane pole, #12 snelled hooks and box of redworms in your rowboat.
I doubt it would ever hold up in court.
DNR has too much time on their hands. :-[
Get out and do some walleye fishing...Taste much better and their in season... ;D
they were fishing for walleyes, pike, and catfish I'm assumming and they're all in season.
It is impossible to prove unless you admit to what your doing. Plain and simple. I really doubt a ticket was issued for just a catch and release.
How does that sign go? If it walks like a duck and something something...... Point is, you're out in a bass boat, using a 7' bait caster, throwing a bass lure, ugh...... you're fishing for bass.
In reality it is one of those Laws that cannot be truly enforced unless you are blantantly trying to get ticketed. You could be out in a 21-foot Z-Comanche with 2 power poles, 8 graphs, 10 baitcasters on each side of the deck, in a tournament jersey with a Bassmasters Camera Boat with Jerry Mckinnis and Mark Zona filming you while you catch 100 bass AND you still could not be ticketed for "targeting" bass................BUT when the Conservation Officer approaches you after watching you catch 100 bass and you say "we're bass fishing" then you deserve to get all of the forementioned stuff taken away with even Jerry and Mark thrown into to jail just from the display of ignorance and stupidity! I like to fish for Sheephead, Catfish, White Bass and even Bowfin this time of year and my tactics are the same for those species as they are for Bass (oddly enough I rarely catch any of the species I'm targeting though!!!). To be frank most CO's and a growing majority of DNR personnel feel that if you have a brain you are free to use it to do what you like as long as there are no negative affects to the fishery - the last 10 CO's I have spoken with over the last 2 years have all said you have to be a drunk version of Forest Gump on crack to be ticketed (ok they did not say that exactly but they did imply it isn't something they setup sting and undercover ops. for because no judge in the state would uphold the ticket).
Maybe we can look into ticketing the Bass for biting rattle traps before C&R opens up.....Crappie LOVE traps from what I hear ;D ;D ;D ;D
Bottom line is attitudes about the Bass Season are changing within the agency that governs it so you'll see some new regulations coming in the next year or 2...........Happy Crappie, White Bass, Catfish, and Bowfin fishing!!!!
I guess my point was the "Closed" Bass season doesn't really bother me....It forces me to target other species that I don't have the time to fish for during the season....Steelhead, Walleye, Crappie, etc etc...
During the Tournament season it is all about trying to find a pattern and waypoints that will hold together for a few weeks....Early in the year I get to just "Fun" fish for other good tasing species.. ;D
My work schedule severely limits my fishing opportunities so after June I really have to focus on tournaments...
From a basic legal standpoint, I'd like to know how "attempting" to catch bass can be proven. When an officer tickets you for speeding, they are acting as witness that they saw you actually speeding. If you were to fight the ticket in court, they must actually take the stand & act as witness.
Now, if I had a bass locked on a nest, and I am actively throwing baits to it, and it is witnessed that I am doing so, I am "attempting" to catch said bass. But I need to be witnessed as actually targeting a bass.
But if I'm just casting a lure in the lake, can you prove what I'm fishing for?
Each year I take an afternoon to tune my cranks. I'm not actually fishing for anything; I just want to keep my cranks running true. Since most are bass sized lures, am I "attempting" to catch bass?
Intent is difficult to prove in court, since you must prove what the defendant was thinking. I don't see where a court would take up valuable time proving intent to catch bass out of season.
Let me say I agree with the points being made, and I wish as much as anyone we didnt even have to deal w/ this topic. But in looking at the other side, I don't see it being that hard to prove intent in most circumstances. (Unless you put a pike or crappie in the 'well right away - something to show the CO!) The courts have crazier things go thru the doors every single day. And they probably bank on the fact that most people will pay a fine versus taking the time, headaches, stress, expenses of going all the way to court. I had to appear before the State Licensing Board a few years ago for a work-related item. They told me straight up that it was stupid I was there, that it was a trivial technicality, but because someone made them aware of it they had no choice but to follow thru. I could have spent thousands of dollars and 2-3 yrs fighting it or paid the minimum $500 fine and walked away. I personally dont see it worth the risk - even if its a pretty small risk.
the risk in fishing off season is they can take and hold everything you have including your boat and truck until your court date. Almost never happens but some have lost rods or full tackle boxes because they were misplaced. best thing is stay inseason.
Hey Guys, Come on down to Indiana we DON"T have a closed season, then you don't need to worry about the DNR ;D You just need to think about catching fish
REELMAN
<))))>{
You guys who think "NO" court will "NOT DO" anything, must not remember the millions of dollars awarded BY A COURT, to the stupid woman who spilled hot coffee on herself. There is no court in this land that you can guess what they will do with anything.
A short version. A LONG time ago, when I was a police officer, I got in trouble. My punishment was to walk a beat in downtown Flint. I found in the books a law that stated you MUST have your parking brake engaged to be legally parked. I started ticketing every car that didnt have said brake ingaged. I NEVER lost one of those tickets in court. Dont assume
It comes down to ethics. Law says the season is closed. Just like hunting. In 25 years of hunting I have never seen a CO in the field, not once. I could shoot any deer I want with any weapon any time and my chances are pretty good I won't get caught, but I still follow the rules. Just because they can't prove it does not make it ok. I see to many people who don't think the rules apply to them. Makes it hard to teach my kids to 'follow the rules' when they see LOTS of other people who don't.
14 days until this topic is closed. ( for this year ).
Quote from: REEL_MAN on April 15, 2011, 06:49:43 PM
Hey Guys, Come on down to Indiana we DON"T have a closed season, then you don't need to worry about the DNR ;D You just need to think about catching fish
REELMAN
<))))>{
You said it, take your money to another state we don't want it! I understand a catch and release season but don't understand the closed season and why it starts on the 1st of the year. At least Ohio's season is based on protecting the fish. Why would we want to be the smallmouth version of Guntersville?
-Matt
Quote from: ronhuntfish on April 15, 2011, 07:33:59 PM
It comes down to ethics. Law says the season is closed. Just like hunting. In 25 years of hunting I have never seen a CO in the field, not once. I could shoot any deer I want with any weapon any time and my chances are pretty good I won't get caught, but I still follow the rules. Just because they can't prove it does not make it ok. I see to many people who don't think the rules apply to them. Makes it hard to teach my kids to 'follow the rules' when they see LOTS of other people who don't.
Good point Ron.....
I think I've said enough already on this topic over the years so for now (only ;D) to save everyone some time, I'll only repeat one thing - please be courteous and respectful to Conservation Officers. They have a tough job to do under super limited resources.
Quote from: djkimmel on April 16, 2011, 05:33:44 PM
I think I've said enough already on this topic over the years so for now (only ;D) to save everyone some time, I'll only repeat one thing - please be courteous and respectful to Conservation Officers. They have a tough job to do under super limited resources.
And they have a gun... ;D
Geez, I am sure sick of this topic. If we could expend all the energy that we do talking about it on this forum and use that same energy to try to change the law, we could probably succeed. I would like to have some one who actually got a ticket to post here. Other wise it is just here say and nothing more. Mr. Nolan who started this post should have better info before he makes any statements on the subject. Look at the subject line of the post. Then in the first line of the post he said "he heard". I hear a lot of things too. Like just recently I posted about Homeland Security was taking over the hot pond area to protect the plant from terrorists. That rumor has been going on since Homeland Security was formed. I posted that because my source was somewhat credible, however a more credible source in my opinion came forward and said maybe yes and maybe no. Turned out to be the resurfacing of the old rumor. Oh well.
So is the DNR really giving tickets or is Mr. Nolan only speculating that the DNR is giving tickets. ??? And I would like to know who Mr. Nolan heard that from and did his source get a ticket. Until someone steps forward, all it can be is here say. Just like the hot pond is going to be protected by Homeland Security. Here say and nothing more. Nothing more than rumors. Just my 3 cents. ;D I am going to wait until I get a ticket or Homeland Security stops me from fishing there. Until I have a personal experience, I am going to treat it as nothing more than here say. Geez, I am sick of this subject. Did I say I was sick of this subject?? ???
Quote from: dartag on April 16, 2011, 07:17:11 PM
And they have a gun... ;D
And a lot of us have guns too........so what. I have a concealed weapons permit so I can carry mine too. And do you really think they are going to pull it on you for getting a ticket. I am with DK, they are the law and we should respect them no matter what.
BD ;D
BD are you sick of this subject?
I think he needs to go fishing. Just my opinion.
I'm sure Mike had as much credibility behind his reason for bringing this up as many other topics that are brought up. I stopped the other post because I didn't want members sniping at each other so lets not get started now. No sense in making it personal. Many of us bring up topics less popular with others and there's a right way and a wrong way to approach it. Singling another member out and insinuating they don't have the right to start a topic is the wrong way.
sorry BD was only trying to make a funny. (I will refrain next time ).
The lake I live on must be open season. I have seen more fishing boats out this year than any other.
only 13 days to go.
Quote from: fuzzygrub1611 on April 16, 2011, 08:24:18 PM
BD are you sick of this subject?
Yes.
Quote from: djkimmel on April 16, 2011, 11:06:26 PM
I think he needs to go fishing. Just my opinion.
I'm sure Mike had as much credibility behind his reason for bringing this up as many other topics that are brought up. I stopped the other post because I didn't want members sniping at each other so lets not get started now. No sense in making it personal. Many of us bring up topics less popular with others and there's a right way and a wrong way to approach it. Singling another member out and insinuating they don't have the right to start a topic is the wrong way.
Yes.
Quote from: dartag on April 17, 2011, 06:45:00 AM
sorry BD was only trying to make a funny. (I will refrain next time ).
The lake I live on must be open season. I have seen more fishing boats out this year than any other.
only 13 days to go.
I knew you were Steve. I am sorry I made it sound so serious. Did I say how sick I am of this subject.
I have seen them give tickets to the people up on the fishing docks. I have never ever seen them in a boat approaching any fisherman in boats. I have been going in there to fish for 20 some years.
I apologize to all for sounding too serious. I need to go fishing before my brain explodes. ;D Going to the river Friday on my day off to get some walleye for Good Friday dinner. ;D
BD ;D
Gentleman,I was out pike fishing with the Legend of Lake St. Clair a few yrs ago.Bob Brunner and I watched a DNR boat going to every boat in the bay, around Selfridge.They ended up coming over to us and looked what rods and tackle we had on.They seen my musky net and said they could tell we were not bass fishing.I asked if they had caught anybody bass fishing today,and they said yes and some people were ticketed.What is funny,I was throwing a 3/4 oz rattletrap and was catching a lot of different species of fish including bass.I also got the biggest musky I've caught on the rattletrap. Some baits are just multi species type baits,what is a guy to do,makes You feel like a criminal.I'm glad the weather has not been that good,it keeps us criminals off the water.
bob620
I have asked the DNR about this topic a couple of times and this is what I was told happens on inland lakes. I have also seen individuals ticketed in 3 counties for targeting bass before the season before but all of the guys were throwing blade baits to deep schooled fish.
1. The DNR will respond if individuals complain of you fishing out of season.
2. To prove you are targeting bass they have to observe you catching fish, mostly they do this from a distance. They base their decision on the number of fish you are catching of a particular species. For example, if you catch 10 bass and nothing else you're toast. The only other way you get in trouble is admitting to it.
I am not going to add to the madness. I will say though if you are not happy with the current regulations, the best way to get them changed is through grassroots organizations like the federations. Join which one feels right to you and with your financial and time support can have a positive effect on regulation changes. Consider this prior to just griping about it.
Quote from: djkimmel on April 16, 2011, 05:33:44 PM
I think I've said enough already on this topic over the years so for now (only ;D) to save everyone some time, I'll only repeat one thing - please be courteous and respectful to Conservation Officers. They have a tough job to do under super limited resources.
I think most of us that are pushing the big "50" will agree on one thing....The DNR must be doing something right because the Tournament bags and fishing for "Most" species is better than it has ever been.....(I know there has been a host of other cotributing factors like Water quality and forage)
I remember when a 15-17lb smallie bag was pretty huge....
Is it illegal to fish for bass in Ohio before the last Friday in June on lake Erie? The regulation states that it is illegal to possess from May 1 till the last Friday in June. Does that mean it's legal for catch and release? :-\'
Quote from: jgip087 on April 18, 2011, 06:30:28 PM
I have asked the DNR about this topic a couple of times and this is what I was told happens on inland lakes. I have also seen individuals ticketed in 3 counties for targeting bass before the season before but all of the guys were throwing blade baits to deep schooled fish.
1. The DNR will respond if individuals complain of you fishing out of season.
2. To prove you are targeting bass they have to observe you catching fish, mostly they do this from a distance. They base their decision on the number of fish you are catching of a particular species. For example, if you catch 10 bass and nothing else you're toast. The only other way you get in trouble is admitting to it.
Guess I'm safe then! I WISH I could catch 10 bass - or did you mean 10 for the season? They'll get tired of following me around for weeks/months!! (LOL)
hey peter, it s catch and release in ohio on erie from may 1 to the end of June, catch and keep anytime outside of that.
CATCH & RELEASE promotion from tournament fishing, DK's Seasonal push, and education through promotion are reasons we see improving Bass fishing in Michigan. Whether you like it or not WFN, NBAA, KBLA, ESPN and Ryan Said are all reasons we have seen improved fishing - not one or the other but all of them promote Catch and Release which is why it is better than it used to be. It isn't the DNR or some earth-shattering regulatory change it is simply because a bunch of dudes that love to whack bass grabbed the headlines and continue to do so more and more everyday.
As far as our state we do not have a Bass Management or Regulatory Policy so let's start being honest about that - now what would our Bass populations be like if we actually did have a proactive economical conservatory approach like some other states do? Take Texas for example - Share-A-Lunker works pretty good last time I checked. Southern states have MUCH MUCH MORE pressure, drastically warmer water temperatures, forage scarcity, and they still manage to have 100's of tournaments all year long without decimating their populations of adult bass. Add in the fact that they fish a majority of the major tourneys during the spawning periods and we've got a recipe for nullifying every single preconceived notion ever thought of up here. So what's the hold up?
I've heard multiple arguments as to why we are stuck in the dark ages but not a single one that really holds up. The growing season is longer in the southern regions - yes it is and that's just great for them; but that longer growing season = a longer mortality season. I'd take a shorter growing season over a longer one just for the decreased mortality alone. I'm perfectly cool with having 20 4-6lb bass per acre vs. a 10 and 2 8's per acre any day of year. I think my biggest problem with the whole situation is the fact that we have been given something no one else in the world will ever have yet we seem to be scared to harness our geographical blessings so we squander the time away arguing about whether or not it's kosher to drive our truck and boat (which we paid for, then buy the gas at the local Speedway that hasn't seen a truck and boat since September, buy a snickers and a Gatorade, powerade, or vitamin water all the while not forgetting that we already purchased our fishing license earlier to then proceed to the lake to Catch Bass & then RELEASE them back in the water to swim away and be the little economic stimulator's of mother nature that they are. Speedway, Dodge, Toyota, GM, Platinum Equity, Mars & Company, Gatorade, 50-Cent, and the guy you gave some change too sure did appreciate your visit and your money so why can't the state....After all every little purchase you just made had State Sales Tax included so what gives? I guess it's the fact that our state doesn't really need any economic growth - let alone any ALL-NATURAL RESOURCES COMPLETLY FREE AT NO COST ECONOMIC GROWTH. I mean it makes complete sense to protect something that's not protected and quite frankly will never need protection as long as we all do what we do the right way; after all whether you are a fish for fun CIR anti-tournament type or the most avid tournament angler I'm pretty sure you'd like to keep the fun as fun as possible. I used to see a lot guys keeping bass just 6-7 years ago; now it seems like I've got to go up Irons in Lake County to see someone fishing for bass to eat - point is times have changed so it's about time we adapt to that change.
Tournaments promote Catch & Release, catch and release fishing is catch and release fishing. Going back to the Law of the Land I would presume that catch, picture, and release is not following the law to the letter during the Catch and Immediate Release Season so if you take a picture you do not respect the law??? And if you weigh it on your Rapala scale, then take a picture you should be deported to Libya to work as a human shield in front of Qaddafi's vacation home.....I'm being sarcastic when I say that but let's just stop with the "technicalities" whether it's catch and immediate release or catch and delayed release it's catch and release. The beauty of the early season argument is that during the "closed" period for tourneys up here the water temps are optimal for fish to have the best possible chance of surviving.....But it's OK to have tourneys when the waters 82 and the only safe place for a bass is under the hundreds of waverunners and pleasure crafts flying over their heads nonstop. Let us not forget about all the EXCELLENT weed control that occurs during the "Season" - that's a much better environment to go out and catch fish in because the Bass are like Johnny Depp in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas from all the chemicals. It must be much better to fish for Bass right after they spray on top of the spawning bluegill, crappie, and bass - better than catching a bass in 55 degree super clean super oxygenated water I guess.......... :-\' :-\' :-\'
"As long as you don't admit it" - feels like we're stealing or something............................
ROI...You have to remember that we tournament bass fisherman make up a VERY small part of the total fisherman on any body of water....I would be willing to bet I could stand at any launch on most weekends and ask the anglers launching how many have heard of NBAA, PAA, TBF, Ryan Said, or KVD for that matter it would be less than 25 percent....Heck in Michigan probably less than 25 percent of the boats launcing are targeting bass exclusively.....
In those southern states Bass are pretty much "THE" gamefish....Not so much in Michigan..As we all know there is a huge stocking program for Walleye, Trout, salmon etc...Not so much for bass...Obviously the DNR with funding restrictions looks to give the most anglers the most bang for their buck...Bass probably isn't on the top of their list as a priority..
I remember in Redman tournaments 10-12 pound bags taking home the first place trophy..Things have improved 100 percent over those days since I got back into this sport a few years ago...
Remember the 5-6 lb smallies that we see on LSC are over 10 years old...It takes years to see those types of results...Longer than most of the organizations and individuals that you have cited have been on the scene....I do agree 100 percent that catch and release education has had alot to do with the improvements...Heck even Walleye anglers are releasing some fish now...
I look at it this way...I have yet to meet a wealthy officer from the DNR...Most are underpaid for their level of education and responsibility and most are avid outdoorsman themselves...I see nothing for them to gain by being complacent with the resource that keeps them employed.....JMHO
# of fish doesn't matter - maybe thats the threshold a CO uses before intervening but it still wouldn't hold up in court. The court goes by the law and the law says "attempt to take". There is no way to prove it short of a CO watching you try to catch a fish off a bed. Fish all live in the same water and no one single bait only catches 1 species of fish. Reasonable doubt gets murderers a walk - when you hold up the packaging for the bait you were using and it has 20 species of fish listed on it.... that to me screams REASONABLE DOUBT.
Remember, innocent until proven guilty. Outward appearances may imply intent - Bass boat, bass rods/gear etc - however - if I am a bass fisherman, it stands to reason that this is just the gear i own. I don't have special non-bass gear for dogfish or crappies to use from ice out until may 1 only. I do know that i can catch both in the same places and on the same baits as bass however - so there's really no reason for me to NOT be attempting to catch those species, regardless of what it looks like i'm doing.
Anyone see the WGFS episode where they are catching kings in milwaukee harbor on pointers using spinning gear? I could go sit in the piers around muskegon lake and fish for kings. Throw cranks or body baits in the rivers for steelhead and catch just as many smallies "by accident".
The law is only enforceable if its never challenged or there is flagrant violation - ie fish in the well.
Reminds me of high school - I got pulled over for "Almost running a stop sign" (officer's words) once when i was a kid..... "almost" might give the law probable cause, but it certainly doesn't PROVE anything.
Maybe its just easier to pretend they didnt see me trying to catch, and release a bass than it it is for them to actually change the law.
just a thought.
Frank
There are more bass anglers in Michigan than any other type of angler according to US Fish and Wildlife surveys done every few years - 400,000 in the last survey. Been that way for as far back as I have the reports for.
For smallmouth bass, 3 good year classes out of every 10 years is about all that is needed to have a good, sustaining population, and is considered about average in most studies I have read that talk about bass population.
Bass are not a top priority to the MDNR for two reasons and really, only the first one matters. This is straight from a number of Michigan fish biologists and researchers I have talked to about the topic over the years - "bass pretty much take care of themselves." And the second reason is - probably because of the first reason - bass anglers don't pester the MDNR much about stocking and similar things compared to the other, less numerous, types of anglers.
Really, if you take care of the water quality and habitat, most of the time, you'll have good bass populations when you look over a period of 5 to 10 years at a time. The populations do go up and down naturally, mostly due to Mother Nature - things no more in our control than a tornado or an earthquake.
Bass pretty much take care of themselves.
I got an email from the tournament director of the All-Star Anglers Trail that goes out of Erie Metro Park. He told me that the MDNR is ticketing anglers for targeting bass. He told me that some of the guys from Ohio that come up and fish his trail have gotten tickets for targeting bass. The MDNR is in a boat and staging just inside the entrance to the Hot Pond. They are recording MC numbers of boats that are going into the area. They use binoculars to scout out the anglers in the pond and if they see these anglers catching bass they record the MC number and stop the anglers when they are leaving the hot pond. Several Ohio anglers have been ticketed. I have not heard nor has he heard of any Michigan anglers getting tickets. So I have to wonder if they are getting tickets for targeting bass or getting tickets for not having a Michigan non-resident fishing license. Now the tournament director said it was targeting bass, based on phone calls he has received from these Ohio anglers. So the question is, have any Michigan anglers been stopped, approached, ticketed in the Hot Pond??? Please chime in and let us know. With the Michigan budget the way it is, I am wondering how many agents are actually on duty daily. The Michigan State Police because of budget crunches only have 7 vehicles on duty every day for the whole state. I got that bit of information from the Allen Park Police Commissioner who happens to be a close personal friend of mine. He goes to all the meetings statewide for all police departments in Michigan. I am sure the MDNR is going to put agents at areas that they feel could produce a good amount of revenue. The Hot Pond would be one of those places. So again, has anyone received a ticket for targeting bass at the Hot Pond??
BD ;D
I just dont get it. What some of you are saying is, its ok to break the law, as long as you dont agree with the law. Not the way I was raised. Also, not the way I taught my kids. I guess I'm learning who I dont want to have any influence on Veronica.You know, there are consequenses other than just a ticket.
Quote from: mikesmiph on April 22, 2011, 09:24:54 AM
I just dont get it. What some of you are saying is, its ok to break the law, as long as you dont agree with the law. Not the way I was raised. Also, not the way I taught my kids. I guess I'm learning who I dont want to have any influence on Veronica.You know, there are consequenses other than just a ticket.
I did not say that it was alright to break the law just because I don't agree with it. I was just requesting information on the subject to see how valid these reports are. Seems to me that the Ohio anglers are reporting that they are receiving tickets. I do believe that in a post in a forum that DK recently locked, that there was one member that said he didn't care if it was against the law or not. He was going to target bass anyway. That is his choice. If I was going to follow that M.O. I would certainly not throw myself up on the "radar screen" by admitting that I was targeting bass on a forum such as this. I am going walleye fishing tomorrow and next week when the season opens for bass, I am going bass fishing. I certainly don't teach my children either to break the law if they don't agree with it. I was not brought up that way either. We must respect the law for what it is. If we don't agree, we should expend the energy to change it. And regardless of what the influence is, our children and grandchildren will always have outside influences good or bad. There is only so much of that we will be able to control as our children and grandchildren grow. All we can do is emphasize that they need to make the right choices. That is what I try to drill into my children's heads. That is all we can do. No one said it was going to be easy.
I have talked to some lawyers on the subject and was told that a ticket such as that could be easy to beat. The MDNR would have do have some very conclusive evidence to make a ticket like that stick. The reasoning that was used by a couple of the lawyers I spoke to was you never know what is going to bite when you throw a lure out there. I get that, but it still doesn't make it right to bass fish out of season. I have gone walleye fishing in the past when bass was out of season and caught bass. I couldn't help that I caught 10 bass to 1 or 2 walleye. I was using live bait. I of course threw all the bass back but kept my two walleye. I was targeting walleye and not bass. That being said, based on what I wrote in the earlier post, should I be ticketed for targeting bass when I had two walleye in the livewell. I don't know. I think if the MDNR was watching me and then approached me, I would try to do the best I could to explain myself, however I may still get a ticket. Just think, next Saturday, this topic will not matter. I will be one of those anglers that will do the best I can to stay within the boundries of the law, however, I am sick of this topic. I want to spend my energy trying to change it rather than fishing for bass out of season. Just my 3 cents.............. ;D I think you and I can agree here Mike that a bit of common sense can go along way..........however I am finding that common sense isn't so common.
BD ;D
Quote from: mikesmiph on April 22, 2011, 09:24:54 AM
I just dont get it. What some of you are saying is, its ok to break the law, as long as you dont agree with the law. Not the way I was raised. Also, not the way I taught my kids. I guess I'm learning who I dont want to have any influence on Veronica.You know, there are consequences other than just a ticket.
on the contrary - people shouldn't just be complacent about nonsensical and over regulative rules. This country was founded upon civil disobedience. I will gladly sign any petition, participate in any meetings or public hearings and voice my opinion based on facts to push the matter. When those avenues take too long or are not given the respect or attention they deserve, i see no problem with pushing the issue.
Secondly, one of the reasons the DNR likes to site about not allowing fishing before the season is the lack of people fishing for bass during that time - which is ridiculous because there's not many people fishing because the law exists in the first place. The more people they see out there, the bigger the issue becomes to them. As dan mentioned - out of 400k people, you'd think we wouldn't be the red-headed stepchild but we are.
Basically - it proves a point. I get a ticket, fight it and it gets thrown out - or i pay it. Either way the DNR learns people want to fish for bass during this period or in the case of the ticket is thrown out also learn that the rule is only mildly enforceable.
You will notice I never mentioned any names in my post. I was not pointing any fingers. I have personally been given two recent pictures of people I know holding a bass that was caught out of season and blatantly being proud of the fact they were fishing out of season. This, to me, is wrong, and I want no part in it. If you are fishing for other species, and a catch a bass, fine. I would help pay for your defense if it came down to that. I guess it comes down to conscience. Some people are out there fishing out of season. I dont agree with that. Its as simple as that. I also dont feel that if enough people break a law, that will help change the law. It just doesnt work that way. I will work in any capacity I can to legally change this law. I dont like it either. BUT, I wont break it. I'll also be glad when the season finally gets here. But, I dont think thats the cue to stop talking about this. We need to come together and work towards changing the law. Federation membership certainly helps with that. I believe you will soon see a big push by TBF to change this law, but we need more voices. I have also had many people recently tell me they wont join TBF because they dont fish the state championship. To me, thats not the reason I belong. I'm done with this topic on here. I know where to expend my energy.
I know you didn't mention names and I don't have a guilty conscience. But I wholeheartedly agree with what you're saying Mike. I have a membership in the TBF as well as the Federation Nation and I believe these are the avenues we should go down if we want to change it. The two people that you got pictures from were just individuals thumbing their nose at the system. Those are the ones that put themselves up on the radar screen if you will as well as the individual I was talking about on another post. It is your prerogative to have the opinions you do and I agree with those opinions but not everyone does. That being said I believe all the persons that are members of this forum should come full circle and work together to change it. Thumbing your nose at the system will not change anything as those persons who did. But the other side is persons like you and I will get it changed because of hard work and perseverance and the ones that are thumbing their noses will stand idly by and watch us and then benefit from all the hard work that we put into it to get the law changed. After next week, I won't forget that the law needs changing. I will work just as hard and put my energy into changing rather than complaining. It will take letters to state representatives, congressmen, senators, etc. And Mike you know as well as I some people don't have a conscience. Those are the ones that should be in the MDNR's cross hairs. Joining an organization like the TBF or the Federation Nation doesn't mean you have to fish state championships. That reasoning that you explained is ridiculous. No sense to that. There are so many more things that these organizations do besides have state championships. As I said earlier, common sense isn't so common.
BD ;D
Dan K, I stand corrected on my statement....I just wonder how the survey was worded....Did they ask the anglers their "Primary species" or what species they fish for....Walleye guys that fish for Bass,,,Steelhead guys that fish for Bass etc.....
It just seems to me that the majority of the guys that I know outside of the tournament world primarily fish for other species....Try to launch your boat the next few weekends on the Detroit river where guys are fishing for Walleye or on the St Joe on the west side where the steelie guys have been chasing them for a few weeks....
That is part of the reason I guess I have so much faith in the Michigan DNR...Fishing here rocks...Period.....Even with the continued loss of habitat hunting isn't too shabby either....
I like to use the Michigan BFL results vs the rest of the regions BFL weights when I speak about how great fishing is in Michigan.....With the same format you can compare apples to apples and Michigan throughout the entire year continues to out perform the other states(Even Texas and California)....But that is another subject...
I am just waiting for the weather to get a touch better when I have a day off so I can go chase some Walleye.....
Bass anglers not only represent over 30% of all licensed anglers in Michigan they also spend way more time on the water than any group of angler. Back in 2001 the estimated economic input of bass fishing to the Michigan economy was $321 million dollars.....current estimates are around $500 million to the states economy so it's a pretty big deal. Now extend that economic impact by another 2 months and I think we'd see some major positive effects immediately. From a tournament standpoint Michigan ranks 4th in overall participation nationally - we are the only northern state in the top 5 so there's opportunity for positive economic growth from that aspect as well.
DK please correct me if I am wrong but I was told that a seasonal regulatory change does not need legislative approval. This is what I was told by a couple DNR Officers after I discussed my plan to try and propose legislation for a "bass stamp" that would allow anglers to fish year round for bass and provide some much needed revenue generation for the MDNR. They told me that because my proposal involved a fee that it would have to go through the legislative process and would take up to a year to even hit the floor of the state house. They proceeded to tell me that it would be much easier to simply propose a seasonal date change or lift current restrictions because those changes do not have to go through the Michigan Legislative process. In a round about way they told me to get it in the right hands inside the DNR and we could see the new restrictions or lack there of in the next seasons Regulations Handbook. Where they giving correct information????????
A law is a law and there is no fault in that way of thinking.
The world to me is not black and white however. In most cases, i would hold myself to a higher moral and ethical standard than any law can enforce, that is what my parents taught me. Personally - I don't need a law to keep me from using drugs, stealing cars, assaulting someone, being untruthful or irresponsible, etc... because i simply wouldn't consider even doing those things. In the same vein, i can find no fault, no harm, no ethical objection whatsoever with catching bass this time of year and immediately releasing them regardless of if the catch was intentional or not.
Given the facts, this is a law of convenience for the DNR and it (at least in my opinion) does more harm to the resource than good. I mean c'mon, what's better for the fish? - catch & delayed release in 40-50 degree water or catch and keep at peak spawn or in august when the water is 80 degrees?
I'm going to be very busy for the next week and a half so I'll have to wait until after that time to look some things up and provide some details to motocross269's questions about how the survey is done, what they ask and what they feel it shows (I've used it many times for various purposes - but I'll have to look it up again to refresh my memory) and same to answer your questions you raise ROI Outdoors. I just can't recall the specifics off the top of my head with enough certainty to want to answer them and risk putting out bad info.
One thing I will point out is that Michigan has huge amounts of Great Lakes waters, thousands of miles of inland rivers and between 10,000 and 11,000 lakes - unless you can visit a large number of them at about the same time, its kind of hard for any of us to feel we have any kind of real handle on what all the anglers in Michigan, and anglers visiting Michigan, are doing, especially if just going by a couple, three known, popular fisheries. Some people actually do make decisions that way, but it is a good way to reach bad conclusions. It would be no different than going to one place that is real popular with panfish or perch anglers at the right time of year, or straight out from a popular cold water fish port, or say the Au Sable River after the end of this month. If we did that, we might all think most anglers in Michigan are panfish anglers, or Great Lakes salmon anglers, or stream trout fishermen. Many people actually think exactly that way - the 'crowd' they most hang out with becomes the dominant crowd in their mind. Not very scientific.
I will add that I personally do not support a bass stamp. We pay plenty of fees and taxes, and how would it really help for 80-some conservation officers to have to now check all the anglers out there in the spring to see if they have the bass stamp or not? In addition, what would a CO do if now he feels someone who does not have a stamp is targeting bass in the preseason when the person says they are really targeting crappie / dogfish / walleye / pike / etc. It's just another variation of the same existing problem. Bass fishing on most waters is not the same as say duck hunting, where you know the person just shot at a duck, and if they get one, you know they harvested a duck. It's dead and they have it. Where they hunt ducks will often be pretty obviously a duck hunting location.
I like regular fishing licenses a lot better. You either have one and can legally fish for what is legal to fish for, or you don't have one and can't legally fish. Everyone is equal. I would also prefer to think that if we simplify regulations, and add additional fishing opportunities, there will be a possible increase in fishing license purchases.
There are studies that show the later in a year someone has to decide to finally buy a license, the more likely they are to just say, 'aw forget it, it's late June now, I'll just skip this year and fish next year.' Lots of licenses are sold to people who fish less than 10 times a year and unlike most of us, it does not take a lot to cause them to just not buy one and 'skip' this season. Skip a season or two in a row and they often become 'non-anglers' possibly never coming back to the sport. That is a much bigger concern to me than some of the other stuff that is 'debated.' Fewer anglers makes us all more vulnerable to more loss of opportunity.
Good discussion....The subject changed a little but I am learning some things that I "Thought" I knew but maybe didn't know so well....
Dan K, I tried to do a google search on Fish surveys but couldn't find much other than harvested species on Saginaw bay and Charter captain creel surveys....I would be very interested to see any Targeted species surveys..
ROI, If we could get the economy rolling a little better in this state I would be willing to bet that Michigan could move up a few places in Tournament participation...Can you get me a link about the tourney participation...I would love to have that info as Ammo when I discuss Tournaments with my Southern buddies....
the cost of a license will inevitably go up in the next few years. what i would like to see is a base license - good for panfish and other rough/non-game fish and individual tags for bass, pike, muskie, trout/salmon and walleye. I think the tags should be negligible toward the total cost (say 2-5$). This way the data is all there - the DNR will know exactly how many people fish for what species and their current system is already setup to work this way. This way we are not catering toward a high cost fishery that generates little revenue (ie MUSKIES). Enforcement should be mean possession (catch and immediate release being OK if you don't have the tag - except maybe in the case of muskies). make it cheap enough that people will buy them as it is more a means to get data rather than generate revenue.
My guess is that you will see the DNR take much different stance on its attitude toward bass fisherman. I would foresee the inland walleye fisherman to benefit greatly from this as well as not much attention is being given to inland walleye lakes these days either.
If not this - the DNR point of sale system both online and in stores is already configured for surveys. Anyone who duck hunts has taken the HIP survey as it is required. A similar survey could also be required for all fishing license sales - basically 3 questions listing your top 3 most pursued game fish ranked in order would provide a huge amount of data on who is fishing for what.
IMO we should double the fee for a fishing license. Then raise the fee for not having one 10X. Everything else goes up with inflation. Why not that?
A stamp is OK, but all that is doing is making it OK for Joe Blow to fish for anything, just because he has some sort of license.
How about a pre season license.
Raising license fees in Michigan is as bad a battle as trying to put in a new public access on any lake with houses on it.
Quote from: motocross269 on April 24, 2011, 12:10:03 PM
Good discussion....The subject changed a little but I am learning some things that I "Thought" I knew but maybe didn't know so well....
Dan K, I tried to do a google search on Fish surveys but couldn't find much other than harvested species on Saginaw bay and Charter captain creel surveys....I would be very interested to see any Targeted species surveys..
ROI, If we could get the economy rolling a little better in this state I would be willing to bet that Michigan could move up a few places in Tournament participation...Can you get me a link about the tourney participation...I would love to have that info as Ammo when I discuss Tournaments with my Southern buddies....
Easy, peasy, Japaneezy...
FWS Survey FAQ
http://www.fws.gov/faq/surveyfaq.html
Overall National Survey - 2006 including by species overall and Great Lakes
http://library.fws.gov/pubs/nat_survey2006_final.pdf
Link to State-specific breakdowns for 1996, 2001, 2006
http://www.census.gov/prod/www/abs/fishing.html
In Michigan, only general panfish anglers outnumber Black Bass anglers. EVEN on the Great Lakes only, Black Bass are 4th most sought after fish with just under 100,000 anglers total and about 85,000 residents, behind Perch, Salmon and Walleye.
Great Lakes only numbers are mostly estimates though based on small samples sizes. Total residents and non-resident bass anglers in Michigan in 2006 = 473,000. Next highest is Walleye with 246,000.
Quote from: UAWBigDog on April 16, 2011, 08:05:56 PM
Geez, I am sure sick of this topic. If we could expend all the energy that we do talking about it on this forum and use that same energy to try to change the law, we could probably succeed. I would like to have some one who actually got a ticket to post here. Other wise it is just here say and nothing more. Mr. Nolan who started this post should have better info before he makes any statements on the subject. Look at the subject line of the post. Then in the first line of the post he said "he heard". I hear a lot of things too. Like just recently I posted about Homeland Security was taking over the hot pond area to protect the plant from terrorists. That rumor has been going on since Homeland Security was formed. I posted that because my source was somewhat credible, however a more credible source in my opinion came forward and said maybe yes and maybe no. Turned out to be the resurfacing of the old rumor. Oh well.
So is the DNR really giving tickets or is Mr. Nolan only speculating that the DNR is giving tickets. ??? And I would like to know who Mr. Nolan heard that from and did his source get a ticket. Until someone steps forward, all it can be is here say. Just like the hot pond is going to be protected by Homeland Security. Here say and nothing more. Nothing more than rumors. Just my 3 cents. ;D I am going to wait until I get a ticket or Homeland Security stops me from fishing there. Until I have a personal experience, I am going to treat it as nothing more than here say. Geez, I am sick of this subject. Did I say I was sick of this subject?? ???
Quote from: dartag on April 16, 2011, 07:17:11 PM
And they have a gun... ;D
And a lot of us have guns too........so what. I have a concealed weapons permit so I can carry mine too. And do you really think they are going to pull it on you for getting a ticket. I am with DK, they are the law and we should respect them no matter what.
BD ;D
I haven't been back to check this thread until I bumped into Dan the other day and he said it kind of took off. For the record I do know two people that have been fined for C & R bass fishing out of season. They will not come forward or try to fight the tickets for personal reasons and I'm certainly not going to name them because some loud mouth wants names. They both paid their tickets which I believe were $140. I don't care if whether people believe the DNR are issuing tickets or not, and I certainly am not telling you not to fish. My point is this is another law without basis and I'm sure the DNR knows it. For any MI DNR officer to issue a ticket for people C&R bass fishing prior to the season opening is for one reason and one reason only, and that is to raise revenue.
Jeff Cox- tell me you haven't attempted to catch bass out of season!
The guy that used the hunting analogy- are you practicing catch and release hunting? You're talking apples and oranges here bud. You're talking about doing something that has been deemed by the MI DNR detrimental to the environment (and I'm not commenting on what IS or what IS NOT detrimental to the environment regarding fishing or hunting) and not getting caught. My contention is by allowing a C & R season for bass during spawning season, the MI DNR is "now" suggesting C & R bass fishing does not have a negative impact on the environment....so why not open the C & R season January 1?!? You can argue with the DNR's assessment of fishing or hunting regulations and the environmental impact of such regulations all you want, but my post is questioning the hypocrisy of the current wording and enforcement on the subject.
I respect that you don't want to give names and I wouldn't either if friends of mine got a ticket. However, all you would have had to say is that some persons that I know personally got tickets. My point is that we have heard of people getting these kinds of tickets for years. Just no one ever said that some one they know personally got a ticket after all these years....................but you didn't have to call me a loud mouth. Your point was the hypocrisy of the law, my point was we've heard this for years and no one ever had good information. Obviously your information is good. Another friend of mine downriver said a friend of his got tickets also..............but you didn't have to call me a loud mouth. If I wanted to be loud, I WOULD HAVE TYPED IT ALL IN CAPITAL LETTERS. But I wasn't. I was just trying to make a point as part of this thread. I get the hypocrisy part......I couldn't agree more with you.
BD ;D
Quote from: UAWBigDog on May 01, 2011, 03:32:00 PM
I respect that you don't want to give names and I wouldn't either if friends of mine got a ticket. However, all you would have had to say is that some persons that I know personally got tickets. My point is that we have heard of people getting these kinds of tickets for years. Just no one ever said that some one they know personally got a ticket after all these years....................but you didn't have to call me a loud mouth. Your point was the hypocrisy of the law, my point was we've heard this for years and no one ever had good information. Obviously your information is good. Another friend of mine downriver said a friend of his got tickets also..............but you didn't have to call me a loud mouth. If I wanted to be loud, I WOULD HAVE TYPED IT ALL IN CAPITAL LETTERS. But I wasn't. I was just trying to make a point as part of this thread. I get the hypocrisy part......I couldn't agree more with you.
BD ;D
Well whether or not you understood the point of the thread is debatable, but the point you MADE was insinuating I was lying about people actually getting tickets. That leads me to believe you probably didn't understand my original comment ??? (at least not after your first read) because whether or not you believe tickets are actually being issued wasn't the point I was making, but that is what you commented on. So I'll stand by my "Loudmouth" comment and after seeing the frequency and argumentative nature in which you post, I will even dare go so far as to suggest you might be a bit of a know-it-all too.... and I have heard that about you from others too (I'm not giving any names!). :-*
Quote from: Mike Nolan on May 03, 2011, 05:37:27 PM
Well whether or not you understood the point of the thread is debatable, but the point you MADE was insinuating I was lying about people actually getting tickets. That leads me to believe you probably didn't understand my original comment ??? (at least not after your first read) because whether or not you believe tickets are actually being issued wasn't the point I was making, but that is what you commented on. So I'll stand by my "Loudmouth" comment and after seeing the frequency and argumentative nature in which you post, I will even dare go so far as to suggest you might be a bit of a know-it-all too.... and I have heard that about you from others too (I'm not giving any names!). :-*
I insinuated nothing of the kind. I merely questioned the validity because you have only posted on the site 14 times and we have been hearing this for years. Kind of a seniority thing with us organized labor people. No disrespect intended Mr. Nolan. I never meant any insult to you or harbor any ill feelings towards you so I don't get why you had to resort to name calling. I am a well educated man who loves bass fishing like every other forum member Mr. Nolan and although I do know a lot, I never claimed to be a "know-it-all" or even intended to be perceived as one. Once again resorting to name calling isn't the way to go. I do not like to argue Mr. Nolan, but I do like a good debate. You probably heard these things from people that have never met me either and I would encourage you to not pass judgement on me until you have met me face to face. I have no opinion of who you are or how you are and will not pass any judgement on you based on someone elses opinion until I have met you face to face and man to man. That way we can help DK keep the site as friendly as we can between mature men. :-*
BD ;D