Great Lakes Bass Fishing Forum

Bass Fishing => Michigan Bass Season => Topic started by: gr@ssmonkey on March 28, 2010, 01:50:55 AM

Title: no season on bass
Post by: gr@ssmonkey on March 28, 2010, 01:50:55 AM
just interested in your guy's thoughts on having no season on bass or my personel prefereance an april 1st opener ;D,what do u think good or bad for the fish :-\',good or bad for tournaments,good or bad for the economy :-\',i know indiana has no season on bass but don't know enough to know if it has been good or bad for them(i do know that michigan dollars will be spent in indiana,tournament fishing before they will be spent in michigan tournament fishing :-\')
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: bigjc on March 28, 2010, 02:58:26 AM
April first opener sounds like a good idea to me.  Kent has been catch and release for years now, and it has been fishing great last few years.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: Got Fish?? on March 28, 2010, 06:45:10 AM
I have mixed thoughts on this subjected. I know, IT would be great to hit the water flying in early spring. One thing to think about is pulling fish off beds. Leaving them unprotected for other fish to invade or maybe the fish after released may not find it's bed.The way it is setup now works. The fishery here in Mi is I think one of the best in the country. Can it be finetuned? Yes,  but all and all we have a pretty good fishery.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: Bender on March 28, 2010, 11:02:26 AM
Why would they do April 1 and not the whole year? Just curious why they would have a closed season at all. To me even the late April date doesn't make sense, what are they protecting by not having it open before that?

There have been a ton of studies on the subject with most showing no impact on the fish. Here is one of the more recent documents concerning Michigan: http://www.dnr.state.mi.us/publications/pdfs/IFR/ifrlibra/Special/Reports/sr44/SR44_Intro.pdf
If you want to study this get ready to spend weeks reading. You can find a lot more studies by searching on Google or let me know and I can list some that I have found.

I think Dan Kimmel worked very hard with others in the state to present information to the DNR to get the CIR season opened. I have been researching this subject a little because here in New York most of the state is open all year for CIR but in my county you can only target bass beginning at the end of June. The biggest surprise to me has been how difficult it is to get anything changed. 

Just one last tidbit is that 69% of bass anglers in Michigan fished for bass during the closed season anyway for the CIR season began.




Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: thedude on March 28, 2010, 11:36:01 AM
yeah, screw april 1st. March 1st. Guess i don't care much if its closed Jan and Feb :D

i went out on a private stocked lake yesterday for a couple hours and caught some nice march bass :)
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: MadWags on March 28, 2010, 11:38:15 AM
there is no reason for a season if you are practicing catch and release.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: mikesmiph on March 28, 2010, 11:46:15 AM
Bass seasons are just like other laws, they only affect those who abide by the law. I argue with my brother all the time about gun control. The only people those laws affect are the ones who own guns legally. The "bad guys" dont buy their guns legally anyway. Its the same with bass seasons. I think the majority of bass fishermen abide by the law. You will always have that select few who are going to break any law, just because they can. An open bass season in Michigan would not hurt the fish,IMO. You already have the few who keep bass year round. That wont change. Everyone knows that Michigan doesnt have the resources or manpower to enforce game laws properly. No matter what the laws are. Those of us who abide by the laws, do so because we are just good people.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: TCook on March 28, 2010, 12:06:23 PM
The current closed season makes no sense to me. The purpose is to protect the spawn and for the most part it does not do that with the current dates. Not to mention most bass fisherman will target bass before the season opens anyways. I don't do it much and spend most of my time in Indiana but if given the opportunity I will target bass without any second thoughts in MI. I think there are two options they should have no closed season at all or lengthen the closed season to actually protect the spawn. I am obviously in favor of no closed season but I will be shocked if I ever see that day come.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: rustydog on March 28, 2010, 12:36:34 PM
If it was c&r duting ice up I wouldn't mind but you would think these guys up here are starving to death when it comes to releasing a bass while ice fishing. I personally caught 25 or 30 largemouth this winter while fishing for gills. After season closed guys were wondering if they should chance keeping the ones they were catching because they taste to good to put back. The last day out my buddy landed 7 and Igot 5. Can't rember last time I saved a bass.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: SethV on March 28, 2010, 02:10:53 PM
I am for no season.  Ever.  Of any kind.  No stupid catch and release.  No closed season.  Let us fish.

This is the worst time of year.  I have to "pretend" to fish for pike if I put the boat in the water - or travel out of state.  I can't really get excited about C&R - I want to fish tx.  So, Between now and the "real" open, I will mostly fish out of state.  Of course I will fill with fuel & eat out of state also.

We have a "natural" season here anyway - its called winter.

Seth
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: capt charlie's charters on March 28, 2010, 02:28:43 PM
closed season is bull.  you gonna tell me the guys in the ice shantys that hook a nice bass are going to throw it back because its out of season.  its not the legal fisherman who abuse the fishery, its the low lifes who catch and keep everything, season or not on beds or not, or if its even legal size.   limits on walleye are a joke, a huge percentage of those guys go back to the dock, fill their coolers then go back out again....and brag about it.  most states don't have the man power to enforce the laws so why be concerned with filling the books with a bunch of laws that can't be enforced anyways.

March 15th sounds good, ice is usually gone by that time.
capt charlie     
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: gr@ssmonkey on March 29, 2010, 12:12:53 AM
Quote from: SethV on March 28, 2010, 02:10:53 PM
I am for no season.  Ever.  Of any kind.  No stupid catch and release.  No closed season.  Let us fish.

This is the worst time of year.  I have to "pretend" to fish for pike if I put the boat in the water - or travel out of state.  I can't really get excited about C&R - I want to fish tx.  So, Between now and the "real" open, I will mostly fish out of state.  Of course I will fill with fuel & eat out of state also.

We have a "natural" season here anyway - its called winter.

Seth


ditto :D  but i would like to see a dec. 30 to mar. 1 which is "natural season"  ;D so at least some will put them back,but i can only imagine the tournament possibilities,and not having to start the season on the same day the rest of the world wants to kick the summer off........like seth said,he will spend money out of state to fish before season opens here and so will alot of guys,as for the hurting the fish during the spawn,i beleive the only one policing the bass is us,the bass fishermen himself so no i don't think it hurts the spawn,it's already been going on for eons,fish look healthy to me.......good read though u guys :) might have to take up that project if i have as much time on my hands as i did this winter :-\'
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: LennyB on March 29, 2010, 05:27:22 AM
I like the idea of catch and instant release in the beginning of the year myself. I think most bass fisherman are catch and re-leasers anyway.
The DNR spoke at our club on this subject when the new regulations were introduced a few years ago and said the issue wasn't with the bass fisherman, it was with the walleye and pike anglers claiming to be targeting bass while actually poaching walleye and pike. Most of them are meat hunters.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: t-bone on March 29, 2010, 08:23:58 AM
There is no reason to have a closed season. Just have a catch and release season during the spawn and everything would be fine. There is no one patrolling the inland lakes now to enforce any rules. I'll be fishing for pike for a while.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: REEL_MAN on March 29, 2010, 10:26:02 AM
Indians doesn't have a bass season and to let you all know there were several tx's last weekend. MI's DNR is just a bit slow to realize how much money they are loosing to Indiana because many of you cross the stqte line because oyu want to fish tx's.
So come on over the waters fine.

REELMAN
<))))>{
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: Got Fish?? on March 30, 2010, 07:57:44 PM
 I really like to fish.So if having a closed season saves even one fish that I can catch,so be it. I know there are a lot of meat catchers who would love to clean out our natural resource's. With out any rules or seasons these butchers will take away everthing we have all fought so hard to preserve. Think about it, if your going to fish before the season you are probally going to release anyway. So why would you want to invite people to your party. That you don't even know?
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: SethV on March 30, 2010, 08:21:44 PM
Quote from: Got Fish?? on March 30, 2010, 07:57:44 PM
I really like to fish.So if having a closed season saves even one fish that I can catch,so be it.

Man, that makes no sense at all.  Tell you what, lets just close it year round - there will be even more fish to catch!!!  Or maybe we can have it open for 2 weeks per year - just imagine how awesome the fishing would be for those 2 weeks!!!   ::)

Up here in Michigan we have such light fishing pressure compared with other parts of the country - "meat hunters" and the like are no threat to the bass fishery.  Most of the meat guys are fishing for walleye, perch, ect (trash fish   ;D  )

If fishing on Guntersville, Grand, Eufaula, ect is so good with them getting pounded year round by many more anglers per acre than we will ever see - i don't think we have any reason for a season up here.

Tournaments should start at ice out.

Seth
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: Waterfoul on March 30, 2010, 10:40:15 PM
Quote from: SethV on March 30, 2010, 08:21:44 PM
Quote from: Got Fish?? on March 30, 2010, 07:57:44 PM
I really like to fish.So if having a closed season saves even one fish that I can catch,so be it.

Man, that makes no sense at all.  Tell you what, lets just close it year round - there will be even more fish to catch!!!  Or maybe we can have it open for 2 weeks per year - just imagine how awesome the fishing would be for those 2 weeks!!!   ::)

Up here in Michigan we have such light fishing pressure compared with other parts of the country - "meat hunters" and the like are no threat to the bass fishery.  Most of the meat guys are fishing for walleye, perch, ect (trash fish   ;D  )

If fishing on Guntersville, Grand, Eufaula, ect is so good with them getting pounded year round by many more anglers per acre than we will ever see - i don't think we have any reason for a season up here.

Tournaments should start at ice out.

Seth 

Don't worry about it.  If Czar Obama and his political vassals have anything to say about it... you won't be able to fish anymore anyway.  Our very own Jenny has him sooooo peeed off right now he's actually TARGETING the Great Lakes region.  Fishing as we know it in Michigan is in great danger and we should ALL be talking to our elected officials to defend our rights as Americans to fish our waters.

As for the closed season on bass... it does NOTHING to protect them during the spawn.  Look around any lake in Michigan from December 31 to the 3rd Saturday in April.  You won't see any bass spawning.  Water is way too cold, even for the smallies.  Just as the spawn is starting we are suddenly allowed to fish for them again??  Why?  Because those who made up this law apparently don't fish much.  They don't listen to those who study the very fish they are trying to "protect."  They don't see the economic impact they are having on our state and the tourism industry.   The reason there is a closed season (and I'm quoting a DNR official I talked to in person recently) on bass is because they believe the walleye and pike fishermen go out and "target" bass... oh well about the incidental eye or pike eh?

The current closed season is asinine and unwarranted.  Every other state in the country with a bass population has been proving it for many, many years.  But many of those more southern lakes don't have the "meat" fish population we have here in Michigan.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: gr@ssmonkey on March 30, 2010, 10:41:15 PM
there is still a creel limit so if the meat hunters can't clean it out in the first 6 months than why would they clean the lakes out anymore in the other six months,i know the spawn is in the season we want to open but i think the post earlier showed plenty of info that fishing during the spawn has no noticeable affect.......don't want to argue just interested in your opinion got fish and fun to debate it..........i know it sounds greedy but the tournament side is what i'm getting at and the dollars leaving michigan(it's not greedy though,tournament fishermen have policed there own fish(bass) forever,i was catching and releasing when i was 15,i'm 36 now,no dnr had to implicate catch and release,bass fisherman did that,and today it's as common as fishing with artificial lures.............if there was a tournament this weekend,i'd buy gas,oil,more gas and probably some snacks and be there,instead i'll do some yard work and hit the nieghborhood pond ;D no dollars spent there :-\'
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: thedude on March 30, 2010, 11:34:52 PM
the violators will violate - regardless of any regulations. They will keep short fish and fish out of season unless the DNR/COs are there to fine them.

The ONLY reason we have a bass season (or pike season for that matter) is because the DNR thinks its easier to enforce a closed walleye season. It removes the "we were bass fishing officer" excuse. We are getting screwed because people like to eat walleye. It would stand to reason that its 10 times easier to enforce a no-possession season on walleye since all they have to do is wait at the ramp and check coolers - rather than approach people on the water. it also eliminates the claim to "pretend" to bass fish when targeting out of season walleye.

Furthermore - there aren't even catchable populations of walleye in most of our Lower Pen. lakes. Couldn't they just have "no bass fishing" in places like the grand river, muskegon, hardy pond etc where people *might* actually be able to abuse a walleye population?




QuoteI really like to fish.So if having a closed season saves even one fish that I can catch,so be it.
its that kind of attitude that keeps us from having a real season. I like to fish a lot too. I also pay a lot of money to fish. I pay money via taxes and license fees so that the DNR can stock lakes and rivers with trout, salmon, musky, walleye, etc. i don' t see any benefit personally from that other than the 1 or 2 times a year i go salmon fishing. The DNR does NOTHING with bass. We all pay towards the benefit of other fisherman - other fisherman should stand by us since all we ask is that we can fish when it makes sense.  Do the math on money spent stocking and managing inland lake muskies compared to the number of "musky fisherman" that fish inland lakes primarily. A tiny minority that is getting a substantial amount of the license fund as well as representation for a fish that can't even sustain its own population.



someone should start an online petition about this. i bet we'd get a surprising amount of signatures if everyone made sure all their fishing buddies signed it.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: Got Fish?? on March 31, 2010, 12:32:16 PM
I always appreciate your opinions. But your missing my point. Go back and read the last three lines of my last post! I guess I'm just greedy. I want to keep all this great fishing to our selves. This state has one of the best smallmouth lakes in the country. To take the chance of ruining it, not willing to do so.Be careful what you wish for, you just mite get it.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: thedude on March 31, 2010, 01:07:28 PM
i would agree with you - however - our current closed seasons do not protect those fish. Great lakes smallies or often bedding well after the catch & keep opener. a mid-may through mid-june c&r season makes a heck of a lot more sense than the current regs - which as i mentioned only serve to make it easier on the DNR to keep track of out-of-season walleye violators on inland lakes and rivers.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: MadWags on March 31, 2010, 03:02:34 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: Mike S. on March 31, 2010, 08:45:23 PM
I grew up in Louisiana and Texas.  We were able to fish there all year long, and guess what, there was an over abundance of BIG fish, and never a problem with the spawn.  It does suck that we are getting screwed because of pike and walleye guys.  It's kinda like why we can't drop shot on Muskegon, White, and Mona Lakes.  The salmon run through them, and they don't want people snagging salmon.  I was told by an officer that that was why we can't drop shot.  The way your hook is on a ds rig would make it too easy to snag salmon.  Once again, penalized because of the ones who can't follow rules.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: Dan on March 31, 2010, 08:54:04 PM
A recently posted study of the effects of fishing for spawning largemouth.

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/newshound/2010/03/bass-myth-exploded?cmpid=enews033110
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: SethV on March 31, 2010, 09:45:03 PM
Quote from: Got Fish?? on March 31, 2010, 12:32:16 PM
I always appreciate your opinions. But your missing my point. Go back and read the last three lines of my last post! I guess I'm just greedy. I want to keep all this great fishing to our selves. This state has one of the best smallmouth lakes in the country. To take the chance of ruining it, not willing to do so.Be careful what you wish for, you just mite get it.

So explain to me, exactly how would a tournament in March with 42 degree water "hurt" our bass fishing any more than it does in August, October or any other month?

Be careful what I wish for?  I wish to use my boat and fish tournaments any time there is liquid water - sure hope you are right and I "get my wish".

Seth
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: MIBassKid on March 31, 2010, 10:03:34 PM
If ruining the best smallmouth fishery in the world was their concern then I think that they would have done a little bit more on keeping out the carp. Having a closed season is a load of crap, not to be confused with carp! It's funny how everyone has a bunch of different reasons straight from a DNR officer themselves, and I'm not saying that they aren't true, but if the DNR actually had a concrete reason why we have a closed season wouldn't they be in agreeance? I just think that their priorities need to be reanalyzed and do what the majority of the population thinks is right. This is a democracy afterall isn't it?
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: thedude on March 31, 2010, 10:22:36 PM
Quote from: SethV on March 31, 2010, 09:45:03 PM
Quote from: Got Fish?? on March 31, 2010, 12:32:16 PM
I always appreciate your opinions. But your missing my point. Go back and read the last three lines of my last post! I guess I'm just greedy. I want to keep all this great fishing to our selves. This state has one of the best smallmouth lakes in the country. To take the chance of ruining it, not willing to do so.Be careful what you wish for, you just mite get it.

So explain to me, exactly how would a tournament in March with 42 degree water "hurt" our bass fishing any more than it does in August, October or any other month?

Be careful what I wish for?  I wish to use my boat and fish tournaments any time there is liquid water - sure hope you are right and I "get my wish".


very good point.
how much stress does a bass feel riding in a livewell in 45-50 degree water compared to that 80-90 degree water that everyone has no issue whatsoever putting them into in august?
Seth
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: djkimmel on April 01, 2010, 01:06:40 AM
An example of why we are where we are (social management) - from the Michigan DNR Fisheries Research Report 1944 'Distribution and Population Dynamics of Smallmouth Bass in Anchor Bay, Lake St Clair' by W. C. Bryant and Kelley Smith (present Fisheries Division Chief) 1988 (I have the complete report).

"The most effective means of increasing yield, at least short-term, would involve changing the (St. Clair Detroit River system) bass season, which does not open until the third Saturday in June, 4 weeks later than anywhere else in Michigan. The late season opening unquestionable deletes the most effective period of bass exploitation. There is no scientific basis for deciding that Lake St. Clair bass need more spawning season protection than populations anywhere else in Michigan. Returning Lake St. Clair to the regular May 15 opener would be beneficial by making regulations uniform statewide. However, the present bass season opening is close to the season opener for Ontario waters of Lake St. Clair."



The next paragraph in FRR #1944 states the MDNR researchers however recommend no change in the regulations at that time "because of a general lack of public sentiment to alter their management."  In other words, if the MDNR thinks most anglers don't want the change they won't make the change even though there is no scientific reason for many bass regulations (social management). I believe the sentiment has shifted fairly strong the other way since that time and Michigan studies support this by showing a large number of anglers in favor of increased legal catch-and-release opportunities (FTR 2001-2, FTR 89-2, FTR 91-6 to name a few). Though, if you were to propose moving the opening day of Lake St. Clair back to Memorial weekend, many anglers would be afraid of a perceived risk and be against it (fear of change).

There too numerous studies to report over many decades showing there is no direct correlation between spawning numbers of bass and overall recruitment (new bass into the population that survive) including no affect shown of bass fishing during the spawn on the bass population. There are no studies that prove a negative impact on bass recruitment related to fishing during the spawn though a few biologists are trying to do so (and have for some time with no success).

Even Michigan Studies Show No Direct Correlation Between Spawning Numbers and Recruitment:  Studies in our own state support what the majority of biologists nationwide believe (demonstrated by 44 or 45 states having no closed statewide bass season), "Generally, there is no close relationship between the number of adult bass and the number of fingerling recruits they produce" (Latta 1974, 1975). "Only six adults per acre can produce excessive numbers of fingerlings" (Schrouder et al. 1989; Mraz 1964).

Please don't think I wish to hammer away at the MDNR. I like and respect many persons at the MDNR and owe them our thanks for help with the VHS virus situation most recently. Many state game and fisheries managers in many states fear the heat they may take from the public and government types when they propose or try to make changes. Change is very hard for many people. That's why FTR 91-6 (our Michigan 6 lakes catch and release study) ends by saying, "Fisheries Division policy on bass seasons should be reevaluated. Both biological and sociological factors should be considered."
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: djkimmel on April 01, 2010, 01:09:24 AM
Understand one thing up front. The more we talk about more tournaments during a longer season, the astronomically harder any lengthening of the season will be. Still too much local lake sentiment against anything that might lead to more tournaments on inland lakes. I personally like the idea of less tournament during the dead heat of summer and more in the cool water periods. But I'm not everybody... :)
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: Durand Dan on April 01, 2010, 04:19:33 AM
Quote from: djkimmel on April 01, 2010, 01:09:24 AM
Understand one thing up front. The more we talk about more tournaments during a longer season, the astronomically harder any lengthening of the season will be. Still too much local lake sentiment against anything that might lead to more tournaments on inland lakes. I personally like the idea of less tournament during the dead heat of summer and more in the cool water periods. But I'm not everybody... :)
I think that statement is right on. At my advanced age  ;D I know a lot of retirees and others that are fishermen and women. Many of these friends live on lakes and are members of associations. Even though they love Bass fishing and take part in it, one of their chief complaints is the sheer number of tournaments that take place. Then, of course, there are the proponents of all sports use that make up the bulk of lake residents which also see the weather limited season as a detriment to the sports they love (I know its sick!). Their voice is loud with representatives due mostly to their positions in business and the community. A completely open bass season would be a long, uphill, probably unsuccessful fight.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: mikesmiph on April 01, 2010, 05:53:27 AM
If you never try, You'll always fail.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: djkimmel on April 01, 2010, 01:38:23 PM
All I'm saying is it is easier to push the windmill in the same direction as the wind. A longer catch and release season is an actual possibility with some planning, care and hard work by some individuals. It will not be easy and involve many meetings, lots of writing and listening to a lot of people who have never read a study or talked to researchers tell you what they 'know' about bass biology, but it is getting more and more likely a possibility every year now. Maybe a 40 to 60% chance of success with all of the above.

Going about it in Michigan with any mention of wanting to hold more tournaments during an open season in the spring has about a 1% chance of success for someone who doesn't mind having a lot of people angry with him or her. I say 1% because few things are completely impossible.

Please remember that I have been attending public meetings, lake association meetings, town hall meetings, meetings with government officials at many levels, and the MDNR, and trying to convince people to rethink what they think they know on many, many Internet forums and other communication paths on this topic off and on for the better part of 27 years.

Getting anything done that involves significant change for a lot of people - the public, government, dnr, etc. - is much easier if you go into it with realistic expectations and a willingness to compromise. Because you will almost never get your way and you will always have to compromise. If you want to get anything at all.

We got what we have now only after over 20 years of hard work. It was not a clear and overwhelming victory. It was by the skin of our teeth really. To be effective in changing public policy and law, you have to be very realistic and honest about the present climate. There's no room for wasting time by confusing what we'd like with what is actually, reasonably attainable considering all known factors. Frustration over that is also a waste of valuable energy that can be put towards getting what we want.

Believe you me... I've been considering and living these factors since I spoke at my first public meeting as a scared, shy 18 year old boy who didn't know I was going to have get up in front of a bunch of angry people and tell them why I supported putting a public access on 'their' lake. No one else showed up for 'our' side so I figured someone better get up and say something for our side. After looking around the room, I realized it was me, or no one... I've been trying to figure out how to be more effective ever since. That had a lot to do with creating this web site, because we are all in it together and it is a lot easier at these meetings and in these issues when there's a bunch of us than when there's just one, lonely, terrified voice in the crowd.

The MDNR played back a tape of my voice after the meeting. I could have gotten a job as Mickey Mouse at Disney. No problem. The MDNR let me stay a few minutes and then walked out with me because it started to look like an angry mob in the parking lot. And guess who they were all glaring at...?? ;D

But... we got the ramp. It's the one at Webber Dam on the Grand River. I use it several times a year. And it feels real good every time I launch there.

Now, who wants to volunteer for the MUCC fisheries committee? Step #1.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: SethV on April 01, 2010, 03:03:39 PM
If the "fight" is just for a longer C&R season, sure I support that, but really, why bother?  We throw lippless cranks and jerkbaits now anyway (fishing for carp or dogfish).  I can't get excited about paper tournaments, so what would the big change be?

It still seems weird that an organization that is here to manage the natural resources (DNR) does so by enacting social laws.  I don't get that at all!  They need to make regulations based on fact and protecting a resource, and in this case that means no season on bass. 

Any fisherman that opposes a year round bass season just does not know the facts.

Seth
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: djkimmel on April 01, 2010, 11:43:08 PM
What you say makes perfect sense.

To us. But not to everyone. Not even to everyone on this forum.

I think some day maybe we could have year round open bass fishing or at least 9 or 10 months out of the year, but I think the only way we can see it happen any time soon is step by step in a fashion that 'scares' less people and lets everyone get used to the changes, and decide that it seems to be okay after all.

Maybe some of you missed the 'fun' I had on some other forums for the couple years before the latest season change. It was vicious. I was even threatened at one public meeting. Ridiculous, but when it comes to change, people do have a hard time. I expected most of what happened. Doesn't mean I like a lot of it, but that is how these things usually go.

Getting tournaments more accepted on many inland lakes is a more difficult and complex problem. That may just take more time and evolution - as much within tournament angler behavior as with others. If we don't get a longer open season, I expect the tournament card will have a lot to do with that. Also, do not be surprised when people propose that we catch and release in the summer to make up for catch and keep in the spring.

I frankly would like to be able to bass fish as soon as the water thaws but the MDNR asked me to set an example by following the present law and I have done so because of the amount of time and effort it took to just get where we are at. I can't state enough how hard and long this change took. I was beginning to think it might not happen for many more years and yet here we are. I think people will come around a little faster now, but be sure that some will say we are greedy and selfish for 'wanting more.'

Patience is a necessary virtue in northern states when it comes to lengthening seasons. If I knew another way, I would try it. If anyone else knows another way, I am all ears. Sure, many of you are out there fishing anyway, but I would personally just prefer to do it legally, without any guilt or possible risk, no matter how small, that a rare incident could ruin an otherwise nice day doing what I love to do. Many of you never get bothered out there, but we are not all that lucky all the time. I speak from personal experience of the past.

I will ask one favor now. Please continue to get the word out about GreatLakesBass.com. Every member we get is one more person that has a chance to see and hear information, and points of view they might not get elsewhere. Every one of us really does play an important part when we talk to our friends, neighbors and other anglers about things like studies and biology verses old wives tales than many have been raised on.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: Bender on April 02, 2010, 12:04:04 AM
Dan, what does MUCC do? They say "MUCC advocates for the wise and scientific management of Michigan's natural resources through public policy and litigation." Either they do not know the bass fishermen would like a longer season, think it is unwise, or have not studied the scientific reports. Have any of the fishing organizations or federations attempted to contact the state or does the DNR only listen to MUCC since they have "nearly 100,000 members".

I have had a little trouble finding how the season was changed here. From what I gather Regional DEC (DNR) mangers were allowed to choose to do whatever they wanted to do. In the areas where they were pressured by groups such as BASS they allowed a year round CIR season in addition to the normal season. In areas without any pressure from an outside group they did nothing. I have talked to the DEC about a couple issues here but I have not heard back since I asked about this.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: ROI Outdoors on April 02, 2010, 05:34:37 AM
Quote from: djkimmel on April 01, 2010, 01:38:23 PM
All I'm saying is it is easier to push the windmill in the same direction as the wind. A longer catch and release season is an actual possibility with some planning, care and hard work by some individuals. It will not be easy and involve many meetings, lots of writing and listening to a lot of people who have never read a study or talked to researchers tell you what they 'know' about bass biology, but it is getting more and more likely a possibility every year now. Maybe a 40 to 60% chance of success with all of the above.

Going about it in Michigan with any mention of wanting to hold more tournaments during an open season in the spring has about a 1% chance of success for someone who doesn't mind having a lot of people angry with him or her. I say 1% because few things are completely impossible.

Now, who wants to volunteer for the MUCC fisheries committee? Step #1.

Currently working on a petition to be signed by tournament anglers, bass fisherman, local business owners, you, me and Dupree - should be up www.roioutdoors.com and in the GLB ROI Outdoors tournament forum.  What we are proposing will somewhat please the Inland Lake Association as so we will gain some support from the MUCC. 

I would LOVE to volunteer for MUCC Fisheries Committee; it isn't as monumental of a task once the facts are laid out and once we give-get with the Lake Associations/MUCC/undereducated people/fisherman we will change the Law.  From a management standpoint the current program does nothing but hurt Michigan's economy - for example there is a Local Bait & Tackle Shop down the road from my house and I stopped in there today to see if the Owner had put out his Terminator Spinnerbaits yet (which he did get out for me and I snagged 11 double-willows in 3/8 & 1/2 for $4 a peice which for those old ones is a steal!); he said the season isn't open yet so he doesn't put the majority of his Bass baits out until after May.  I asked him how impactful having a year-round open season would be on his business and he said it be huge - this is true for pretty much all local economies. 

99% of the time when I go to lake I stop and get either gas near the lake, a couples waters and maybe a NOS/Rockstar or 2, a Slim Jim or something to eat that usually runs $10-$20.  I bet those local places would rather I/We do that 100 times a year vs. 50 times a year.  Every time I go down south to Gull or east to St. Clair I spend money at local gas stations, restaurants, hotels, tackle shops - why would a state with the worst economy in the nation have ineffective laws in order to send our discretionary income down to Indiana or other states?  PERCEPTION is the simple answer people complaining about tournament anglers and bassers flipping their lures on their gas lines, pontoon boats, docks is the longer answer.  The full circle effect is in effect because people are not properly educated - most Lake Associations want sandy beaches and great skiing lakes but if they only understood they are devaluing their property by removing all the structure, weeds, fish then maybe they would start to understand the importance of balance and ultimately everyone can have a piece of their selfish pie.  The opposite is true for the fisherman, we need to be mindful that not everyone fishes.  Clean, sandy skiing water is the Cat's Milk to a lot of people so lets have clean, sandy skiing water with a motherload of 7-8lbers.  Compromise is the word and that is part of the strategy - we limit the number of tourneys on inland bodies of water and they concede the fact that there are a great deal educated fisherman who understand when 4 tournaments a week on a 300-acre lake is a little too much for the fish, clean water, sandy beaches and wake-boarders.  Can someone say bigger tourneys?  This type of model almost forces the return of the Big Weekend Events by taking us away from the local holes and making us go to the BIGGER WATERS (Seth your 250 called and told me this was a great idea ;)).

It starts with the Anglers.  We all need to be more respectful of others lack of knowledge - the effects of water temperature and mortality (spring tourneys would have much lower mortality, and the last time I fished one a tournament was catch & release.  As a matter of fact one could make the argument that putting a fish in a livewell system like a Flow-Rite could actually better protect a fatigued fish after a long fight from predators).  There is no correlation to bed fishing and reproductive rates IF THE FISH ARE PROPERLY HANDLED (again I am talking about simply possesing a fish for a short time in a fish friendly life support tank that revives them and protects them from other predators in the area).  Bass fisherman namely tournament fisherman like to gamble, buy compulsively, spend money they don't have and then gamble some more.  Their economic impact is by far the greatest when you compare other similar segmented demographics within the angling community.  It ends with the Anglers.  We need to respectfully educate the masses in order to make a 100,000 member organization look like a Lions game crowd in the 4th quarter of a Blow-out.  Every local gas station, tackle company, restaurant, hotel, or any other business near any fishery should be all about it once they understand the facts - it is good for their business and it is good for Michigan.

Another thing tournament anglers/organizations, weigh-masters, directors should start doing is taking better data and offering up those details as a management tool to our conservation agencies - length, mortality, delayed mortality (hard to do measure that one but not impossible), and also continuously improve the delayed C&R process (aka tournament weigh-ins).  I am somewhat dumbfounded that there is no standardized process readily available to the masses with weigh-in procedures and best practices - I know it is out there but it should be in our face out there.  It is common sense improvement and again it simply comes down to educating people on facts.  You would think with all the tournament organizations out there in Michigan someone has kept super-detailed databases with more information than the average Joe but it doesn't seem that way; a lot of organizations have lost their way and forgot that they would have an organization without the fish so we should kindly remind them of that fact while we are at.  On the flipside there are organizations (tournaments) that try to hide dead fish in order for Pam Anderson to not think we are complete Barbians but rather simple savages - if the people handling the fish or running the tournament are doing it the right there shouldn't be such a major production to try and hide the fact that life happened.  To me it looks like we are trying to hide something when we should be EDUCATING people like Pamela on a boat in Lake Tahoe..........

The GREAT THING about this topic is there is an overall concensus among Anglers that CHANGE is needed; it is one of the only things serious anglers can all somewhat agree on.  My Glass is always Half-Full because I live in a state surrounded by freshwater; the greatest thing about living here is we don't even have 25% of it right so the POSITIVE change opportunities are almost endless.  There will be a petition available soon so start thinking about all the signatures you are going to get and then we will deal with the organizations who simply need a big bowl of FACT for breakfast with a glass of ECONOMICS 101 to wash it down - in a respectful manner of course.  Somebody could probably win the 2010 Michigan Gubernatorial race with a "Fishing Stimulus Platform" (anything is better than those Pure Michigan commercials that try to make Michigan look like Bora Bora or Panama!). 

This one was choppy, long as usual, and most likely a recap of what everyone else has already said but I don't sleep that great when it's 80 DEGREES on April 2nd and I'm about to go WHACK some Largies in 2 hours!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In Indiana of course....................................................
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: thedude on April 02, 2010, 06:04:18 AM
i don't have the experience and background that dan has - but i'm fearful if we do not push for everything all at once. Seems like whenever i bring up a bass season - quite often someone says "well you just got C&R and now you want more?" like we're greedy or something. 

If we're going to get them to budge at all, we should get as much as they are willing to give or it will be another 10 years before we can push the change again. As stated the evidence supporting a full season is staggering. We need to get our DNR away from doing moronic things like letting management decisions be put on the ballot (ahem, dove bill....) and start managing fish and wildlife resources based on the biological factors they are supposed to understand.  With the current shake-up in the DNR org, now might be the perfect time to start applying pressure. They are obviously trying to simplify their processes and implementing change during a time of transition like this comes at a lower cost.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: djkimmel on April 03, 2010, 01:38:44 AM
Because MUCC is large and represents a great number of diverse outdoors clubs, it makes sense for the MDNR to listen to their opinions and feelings on things. That is a reasonable way to test the waters regarding outdoors persons' attitudes in Michigan. I would do the same thing myself considering things. No other state has something quite like MUCC.

If MUCC comes out against something, it would seem like a reasonable conclusion to believe it does not have popular support. So, it's a good idea to get MUCC to support your position.

Part of the reason we ended up with the same opening day for catch and release as the walleye, pike and trout opener (besides it being an easy choice for consistency) is because some of the walleye clubs complained that an earlier opener - like the April 1 proposed by bass anglers - would give some anglers a chance to fish for walleye illegally by saying they were bass fishing.

That is just something that has to be considered and dealt with. The easiest way might be for someone to get appointed to the MUCC fisheries committee or whatever they have now, and work for acceptance of a new change.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: djkimmel on April 03, 2010, 01:49:13 AM
It is a common tactic to ask for more than you want so you can compromise down to what you really want. Again, part of that is knowing up front you won't get all or exactly what you wanted most of the time. Compromise is almost always necessary. Especially in a broad issue that might involve so many different people and opinions.

One other thing about MUCC that I did not mention but should be obvious, they represent a diverse, broad base so it doesn't just come down to just what bass anglers want but what is acceptable to a majority of their members. Which fits right into the compromise thing.

Which is the same with any statewide change to anything. What is acceptable to enough people to win a majority.

I specifically mentioned the 'greedy' thing because I know that will come up. It came up before. So, the more we were to ask for now, the more 'greedy' we will appear to some. That could make things a lot harder. So maybe not a good idea right off the bat to ask for too much?

Just needs to be considered with many other factors.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: djkimmel on April 03, 2010, 02:05:54 AM
I can't stress how important it is to separate personal desire and emotional feelings from the actual issues and known factors of something like this. You have to be objective and realistic.

I like to go by the Rolling Stones principle - "You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you get what you need."
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: dartag on April 03, 2010, 06:58:36 AM
Quote from: djkimmel on April 03, 2010, 02:05:54 AM
I can't stress how important it is to separate personal desire and emotional feelings from the actual issues and known factors of something like this. You have to be objective and realistic.

I like to go by the Rolling Stones principle - "You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you get what you need."


you must have been a " Jedi Master "  in a previous life.   ;D ;D

3 weeks from today we can all go fishinng....
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: mikesmiph on April 03, 2010, 07:34:37 AM
Dan, you will always be "THE MAN" in my book. Very profound. Thanks for all the info. Talk to me sometimes about this MUCC board seat. I need info.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: zooker on April 03, 2010, 10:06:52 PM
Quote from: SethV on March 30, 2010, 08:21:44 PM
Quote from: Got Fish?? on March 30, 2010, 07:57:44 PM
I really like to fish.So if having a closed season saves even one fish that I can catch,so be it.

Up here in Michigan we have such light fishing pressure compared with other parts of the country - "meat hunters" and the like are no threat to the bass fishery.  Most of the meat guys are fishing for walleye, perch, ect (trash fish   ;D  )

If fishing on Guntersville, Grand, Eufaula, ect is so good with them getting pounded year round by many more anglers per acre than we will ever see - i don't think we have any reason for a season up here.

Tournaments should start at ice out.

Seth

we have no seaon on any bass here.around here we average 100 tourny anglers per saturday per lake in the yadkin chain.not counting the 100 more just fishing or the wildcats that average around 50 boats each during the week..

now if they do open the season to year round fishing exspect the dnr to thow a slot limit on your bass.. we have them in several local lakes. the slot is 14"-16"and over 20" keep.. i loath the slot as a tourny angler. since a 5 pound bass here is around 19"...

belive it or not in december thru febuary there is not much pressure on the lakes..

zooker     
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: MadWags on April 04, 2010, 07:12:11 AM
The slot limit does have a proven track record of being an effective tool conservation tool.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: ROI Outdoors on April 04, 2010, 04:43:54 PM
Quote from: MadWags on April 04, 2010, 07:12:11 AM
The slot limit does have a proven track record of being an effective tool conservation tool.

That is very true statement!  Hopefully others will absorb the MadWags Wisdom Web Gems and begin to understand the untapped potential that we all have living in the freshwater capital of the entire world.  Personally I'd like to see a slew of fisheries with a 14-16 inch harvest size slot; meaning only bass within 14-16 inches may be harvested.  There should be clear distinction between harvest and possesion because possesion is a requirement for any tournament angler - if guys can only kill 14-16 inch fish there would be an immediate positive impact on the overall size of catches on the fisheries with an overabundance of small to medium sized populations.  The interesting thing about the possesion aspect is that it is nearly impossible to enforce seeing as the Conservation Officer to Launch Site hovers around the 1 to 100 in areas like Southwest Michigan.  The only way this could be managed is by tournament/sporting anglers keeping good watch on the stringers hanging off the side of the harvesting anglers boats.  I bet the anglers on this site alone could provide an accurate median size of bass on 95% of the fisheries in Michigan that could be applied to each particular fisheries overall management strategy.  The ultimate goal would be to increase overall size thus creating an environment conducive to an abundance of lakes with trophy potential. 

Like Skeet said this weekend at DNR "Bass fishing is expensive".  Ultimately Michigan could be one of the most desirable places in the world for Anglers to visit and spend some of that money in.  The economics on this whole deal should be ample ammunition to create immediate change; lucky for us it is an election year so the opportunity to change the political climate is upon us.  This entire debacle is all politics for the sake of politicians, it would be wise for some of these politicians to take a quick second and look at Google Maps and look at what we are completely surrounded by - it just chaps me beyond Gold Bond that we do not use the one natural resource we have more than anyone else in universe to our advantage fiscally and recreationally.  Hopefully reputable people on sites like this will start the education process so there is no uphill battle to win the "majority" but rather a concensus on common sense.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: macbass on April 04, 2010, 06:39:23 PM
ladies and gentleman just a little reminder to all...the tournament angler is a very small percentage when you compare it to everybody that fishes...not sying things cant be done and should not be done...but like somebody said a few psot ago if you only look at the tournament aspect there are  lot of politicians look at the greed factor that the tournament angler has...if we as tournament anglers were wise if it ever went to an open season...instead of every club and organization looking at the aspect of ....OH BOY WE CAN GET 4 TO 10 MORE TOURNAMENTS IN A YEAR....spread out the schedules that are already in place and relieve some of the pressure on the smaller inland lakes...and that leaves more time to fish other circuits and clubs....because they are not all on the same day...also frees up a few lakes for teh recreational fisherman and also jet skis water skiers and other recreations.... might also cut down on some bad feelings from lake front property owners and save a few accidents a year.....just an opinion to look at
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: djkimmel on April 05, 2010, 10:05:05 PM
Slot limits, particularly for bass, are a specialty management tool for special needs, not a general population improvement tool based on studies I have read and biologists I have talked to from many different states.

Like any management tool, they are most successful when used for specific reasons under the right conditions. They do not generally provide any benefit to healthy bass populations.
Title: Re: no season on bass
Post by: zooker on April 06, 2010, 03:10:16 PM
true nuff..the slot is mostly imposed to portect a certain year class of bass.. here it is imposed to bring up numbers of 2-5 pound bass.the average tourny fish size..mind you not all lakes are this way just a few,mostly the "nuke" lakes..

zooker