Great Lakes Bass Fishing Forum

Anybody, anybody?  Bueller? 

I have a few pages of notes. I need another night or two before I can post up what was covered from my notes.

I will say all the bylaw change motions were voted on despite the protest of two clubs, but they were either defeated handily or withdrawn.

Cool! The board can continue to run the TBF and not the members? GREAT? ::)

No, I'm only kidding....relax! ;D

I thought the meeting went pretty smooth. Everyone had a lot of good things to say. I think 2010 will be an amazing year!!

I just want to thank Tommy Robinson for coming out and sharing his story with us about the divisional. What a great trip! National bound!

                                                 Jon

I'm currently planning on fishing the July 11th event on Muskegon.  This is something new for me.  Is this a draw tourney or do I need to secure a partner?

Quote from: Waterfoul on November 04, 2009, 04:29:37 PM
I'm currently planning on fishing the July 11th event on Muskegon.  This is something new for me.  Is this a draw tourney or do I need to secure a partner?

It's a draw format.

Waterfoul, you'll need to be in a TBF club that sends an equal number of boaters and nonboaters on a team to the state championship. Whose boat you use is solved up front by the boater / nonboater designation from the clubs.

At the event, the boaters on each club team are drawn with a nonboater from another club. The draw format part is that each angler does have the rights to equal time fishing their waters (that includes time to and from their spots) and fishing from the front of the boat if they want to.

Quote from: Mark117 on November 04, 2009, 01:50:59 PM
Cool! The board can continue to run the TBF and not the members? GREAT? ::)

No, I'm only kidding....relax! ;D

I thought the meeting went pretty smooth. Everyone had a lot of good things to say. I think 2010 will be an amazing year!!

I just want to thank Tommy Robinson for coming out and sharing his story with us about the divisional. What a great trip! National bound!

                                                 Jon

The bylaws are what spell out the authority the board has verses the authority they don't have (the clubs have). If we keep getting good turnouts at meetings like that, it can only improve things for everyone. I was glad to see a good turnout of most clubs.

Thanks for getting involved with the TBF of MI. This is a draw format. Every angler gets half the time to run the trolling motor and fish his spots if he or she wishes. You must enter as a boater or non boater. To help keep the pairings in order we ask you find a boater or nonboater to sign up with...Each club must send equal boaters and non-boaters.

This is a tournament you will not want to miss!

       More members, More bass, More fun,
                                                        Jon

p.s. If anyone has any questions about the TBF of MI please call:
Jeff @ 734 429 2580 or Jon @ 248 835 8730.     Thanks

Dan, did you right the bylaws or how did they come about?
You and Dennis did start the TBF of MI correct?

Yes, the turnout was amazing at BPS. Thanks to everyone involved!!

Dennis got the suggested bylaws from TBF Inc. He and I made some changes we needed to get started. We presented them to the startup board of directors. Over the first couple of meetings, the startup board made some changes and tweaks we needed to get through the first year.

Now that the minutes are posted on the TBF website, I have a couple of questions.

Why were the dues raised for the TBF of MI?

What were the by-laws changes proposed by Eric Bond?  They are only listed by letter, not content.

Thanks for the clarification, Eric.

After having a few minutes to go over the minutes more thoroughly, I have a few more questions.

Since the TBF of MI can't afford this;

$5 dues structure for the TBF National was previously covered by the TBF of MI.
2010 – Kids must now Pay individually.  In addition, the TBF is highly suggesting each kid have a Dual FLW membership as well($25) for a total of $30 dues for 2010.

How can it afford this;

Jeff Cox formed a past presidents committee. This currently consists of Dennis Beltz.
Jeff proposed a motion to pay the TBF and FLW dues for life of all past president committee members.  The motion was seconded by Jack Cahn. All present voted yes. Dennis Beltz Abstained. Motion passed.

How convenient that Jeff Cox is the current president and, of course, will someday be a "past president".


And is it my understanding that the proposed fundraising (ie; poker games, gift wrapping at Bass Pro Shops, etc.) will go toward providing a entry fee free "2010 State Fish Off"?

From TBF of MI Board Meeting minutes-Jeff Cox has gained Backing to fund the free SFO for 2010 if our fundraising efforts come up short.


Again, why were the dues raised to $25?  Was it to help fund the free entry into the "Fish Off"?  What about the members who aren't interested in fishing the "Fish Off"?  What do they get for their extra dues?

Quote from: cameraguy on November 10, 2009, 08:11:22 PM
Again, why were the dues raised to $25?  Was it to help fund the free entry into the "Fish Off"?  What about the members who aren't interested in fishing the "Fish Off"?  What do they get for their extra dues?

The dues were raised to cover the operatinng costs of the Michigan TBF.  Without membership growth the last few years a dues raise has been long over due.  We have been surviving financially from the state teams winnings, which is fine but not something we can count on.  We have been extremely lucky the last 2 years to win the divisional and take home the roughly 10k.  As to what members who don't fish the state fish off get for their extra dues, the same thing they got last year.  Cameraguy, here is your response to the same question I asked last year as I was one of the members who did not fish the state fish off. 

Quote from: cameraguy on April 29, 2009, 11:05:29 AM
From the Michigan TBF website...

Benefits of TBF of Michigan Membership:

$1 million in limited liability insurance for your club.
$25,000 excess medical coverage!
Special product discounts from many of our sponsors, including;
    -  Lowrance electronics
    - AFT Products (Cul-M-Rite, ProPak, etc.)
    -  Fish Hedz
    - C.A.S.T. Wireless Lanyards
    -  PRO-Tournament Scales
    ... and more
A chance to advance through competition to fish in four major bass tournaments;
    - Forest L. Wood Cup (1 pro angler, 1 co-angler)
    - Federation National Championship
    -  BFL All-American (6 boaters, 6 co-anglers) 
    -  BassFan Army Weekend Warrior Championship (6 boaters, 6 co-anglers)
"Living the Dream" contract for the winner of the Federation Championship.
Fully-paid entry fees into the six (6) qualifying FLW Tour events held during that calendar year, or fully-paid entry fees into the five (5) qualifying FLW Series events held during that calendar year.
The use of a wrapped "Living the Dream" branded Ranger boat powered by an engine of FLW's choice.
The use of a wrapped, "Living the Dream" branded vehicle chosen by FLW

You can get more info at the TBF website.

http://www.michigantbf.com/Join_TBF_of_Michigan.html

Cameraguy, I don't know what club you are in but your club president should have attended the meeting and can anwer a lot of these questions more thouroughly.

-Matt Belletini

The problem is that dues are being raised to help fund the state championship so there is no entry fee.  So, the non-participating anglers are being forced to subsidize the tournament, with no apparent increase in benefits to them.

This is from an e-mail sent by J. Cox a few weeks ago, "If we can get membership up enough we can keep it free for years to come.  For the plans to go on correctly I will need to raise the dues to 25.00 across the board."

If the budget is underfunded enough to stop paying for kids dues to FLW, then why spend money on things that are not necessary (Lifetime Memberships for past presidents) and take away a huge source of revenue...entry fees for the State Championship.  If 50 anglers fished the State Championship @ $100 apiece that equals $5,000.  It would take an additional 200 members dues to cover that if their entire dues went to the tournament.  Where does that leave youth projects and conservation?  I guess that's where the fundraising comes in.  However, this was covered in the minutes for the most recent meeting; Jeff Cox has gained Backing to fund the free SFO for 2010 if our fundraising efforts come up short.
That seems to imply that the fundraising being done is for the State Championship.  Again, what about the youth and conservation?  It really looks bad when the TBF does fund-raising it is only doing it so tournament anglers can fish a little more cheaply.

Evidently, some members apparently want to get paid for their time off of work and have every penny of expense covered if they make the team.  I never had that ridiculous expectation and did it because it was a great experience.  If that's what team members expect out of the TBF of MI then it is not the TBF I joined and will not re-join for 2010.  

Does anybody know what the ratio is of Michigan TBF members compared to those that don't fish the State Championship?  In other words, how many people have joined TBF with no intentions to fish the State Championship or to have their kids involved in the youth events?

Camera guy, what club are you in?  Who is your president?  All of your conecerns were spelled out at the presidents meeting.  There were several handouts regarding 2010 budgets and 2010 state team funding that may help explain the details the minutes lack.

Quote from: cameraguy on November 12, 2009, 11:43:53 AM
The problem is that dues are being raised to help fund the state championship so there is no entry fee.  So, the non-participating anglers are being forced to subsidize the tournament, with no apparent increase in benefits to them.

The dues were raised to cover Operating costs and the youth and conservation budgets based on our current membership which is roughly 100 members.  

Quote from: cameraguy on November 12, 2009, 11:43:53 AM
This is from an e-mail sent by J. Cox a few weeks ago, "If we can get membership up enough we can keep it free for years to come.  For the plans to go on correctly I will need to raise the dues to 25.00 across the board."

With increased membership, we will be able to cover operating costs through the dues and have money left over to apply towards the various budgets.  The feedback received from the larger TBF states was that the Fish Off needed to be free to significantly increase membership. Increased membership will expand our fundraising opportunities in the future.  The TBF of Michigan needs to grow to serve its intended purpose.  This organization is about more than an easy route to the state team.

Quote from: cameraguy on November 12, 2009, 11:43:53 AM
If the budget is underfunded enough to stop paying for kids dues to FLW, then why spend money on things that are not necessary (Lifetime Memberships for past presidents) and take away a huge source of revenue...entry fees for the State Championship.  If 50 anglers fished the State Championship @ $100 apiece that equals $5,000.  It would take an additional 250 members dues to cover that if their entire dues whet to the tournament.  Where does that leave youth projects and conservation?  I guess that's where the fundraising comes in.  However, this was covered in the minutes for the most recent meeting; Jeff Cox has gained Backing to fund the free SFO for 2010 if our fundraising efforts come up short.
That seems to imply that the fundraising being done is for the State Championship.  Again, what about the youth and conservation?  It really looks bad when the TBF does fund-raising it is only doing it so tournament anglers can fish a little more cheaply.

The majority of the fundraising is for the state team, but the state team doesn't receive sufficient funding unless the TBF grows or raises money.  Youth and conservation will receive money from what little money the TBF has, their budgets were first priority.  Jeff has come up with some great ideas to raise money and has also personally backed the funding of the state team through his sponsors if we fail to meet our goals.

 

Quote from: cameraguy on November 12, 2009, 11:43:53 AM
Evidently, some members apparently want to get paid for their time off of work and have every penny of expense covered if they make the team.  I never had that ridiculous expectation and did it because it was a great experience.  If that's what team members expect out of the TBF of MI then it is not the TBF I joined and will not re-join for 2010.  

Representing the TBF of MI at the divisional can be pretty expensive, especially when traveling far.  The TBF should support their state team.  The State Team should be for everybody, not just guys with deep pockets.

Thanks, Matt

Quote from: Jighead on November 12, 2009, 12:06:39 PM
Does anybody know what the ratio is of Michigan TBF members compared to those that don't fish the State Championship?  In other words, how many people have joined TBF with no intentions to fish the State Championship or to have their kids involved in the youth events?

Last time I fished the state fish off 2 years ago there were 80 members fishing.  The membership is usually around 100.
-Matt

Actually, the membership had been up to about 230 members at one time when had a little over 80 anglers fish. It has been about 50% fishing the state championship and 50% not fishing on average each year over the life of the event.

Quote from: djkimmel on November 12, 2009, 01:16:03 PM
Actually, the membership had been up to about 230 members at one time when had a little over 80 anglers fish. It has been about 50% fishing the state championship and 50% not fishing on average each year over the life of the event.

Wow, what happend to all these members?  The highest I've ever heard was 120.
-Matt

Let me say a few things:

Jighead good question...a small %?? very small. maybe 10%?

cameraguy....dues are up this year for the new budget! 100members at $25= $2500 operating cost to run a company.

To the non-participating anglers that are being FORCED to subsidize the tourney... I say to them " I promise that their $10 increase will go towards the YOUTH, CONSERVATION, & OPERATING COSTS TO RUN THE TBF of MI!"  Thank you.

Lifetime memberships to past presidents is $75 a yr? Dennis has done more for this federation than any other member! If we can't afford $75 a year for his dues....shame on us! If we grow every year by 3 new members they will pay for this cost!! Not a big deal? Maybe someday we will have 1000 new members with your help.
toot my horn...I helped the TBF grow last yr with 10+ new members?
CAMERAGUY how about you?
My goal this yr is to help the TBF grow to 300+ members. With a lot of help!

"GETTING PAID FOR THEIR TIME OFF OF WORK?"
cameraguy...If you plan a vacation with the family for 7 days.
I'm sure you make a BUDGET for that trip to see if the family can afford to go? YES? We need a budget for everything to keep the federation alive.

cameraguy...you were on the state team the first year we went to WI. Right? What a great experience! WE SHOULD HAVE WON THE 10K FIRST PLACE PRIZE? WHY DIDN'T WE WIN?
We had no money for expenses, we had to pay for the trip ourselves, and we only had a "10 man team?" WHY?  Because no other members could afford to take a week off of work and the team was left 2 men short?  ITS ALL ABOUT FUNDING! Membership growth, fundraising, donations, or sponsorships. I have made the state team 3x's and I have paid for that trip with a lot of out of pocket expense? Looking to LIVE THE DREAM. State team funded or not I will always fish the state fish-off to help support the TBF.  If my company "TBF of MI" wants to pay for my week off? That is a bonus!

The STATE TEAM has brought in 19k+ over the past 2 yrs to help fund the TBF of MI! The youth & conservation efforts have not been left out at all! We have an amazing youth program(Thanks Brian & Dennis) that is well funded and our conservation efforts will only grow every year with the help of the new conservation chairman (Josh)! Looking forward to a bright future.

Without the help of the STATE TEAM......The TBF of MI would be "The Broke Federation". So I invite everyone to join us at the Muskegon state fish-off to help support the TBF and for a great day on the lake catching bass which we all love to do!

cameraguy if you have any ideas to help this federation grow, please let me know.

                           thanks for your help,

                                         Jon jezierski
                               membership growth committee

p.s. Always looking to someday  "LIVE THE DREAM!"

It's not an estimate. I was on the board. I actually know these things.

In 2007, we had 232 members early in the year with only 15 being youth members. Just my club had 28 members early in the year with a little over 40 members in 2008. We have to reach something like 225 at first to get Ranger Cup, and we got it in 07 and 08.

Membership was a little higher later in those years. Membership dropped off quite a bit in 2009 and was helped much more by a higher number of youth members.

So yes, in 2007 and 2008, less than 50% of the members fished the state championship. It has never been the reason why most members join a federation. All you have to do is look at the history of all federations in Michigan to see it has always been a minority of members who have participated.

Some of my questions may sound ignorant, but that's only because I don't know and I'm just trying to learn more about the TBF.  I'm only asking them out of genuine interst and they're not meant to be antagonistic.

I've been asked to be on the membership comittee and to help grow membership.  Help me learn how to sell our organization to a non-tournament angler, with tournaments not being the primary reason that most people join a federation.

What benefits would a non-tournament angler see by joining the TBF (and paying $75 in MI, National, and FLW dues).  I looked on the Michigan TBF website, and all of the membership benefits listed are tournament related (except for a few product discounts).

Jighead... that is exactly what I've been trying to teach people about what a federation really is. It is too common a mistake to think everyone thinks just like you (the rhetorical you) when, say for example you are pretty much just a tournament angler and pretty much just hang around with other tournament anglers - a small minority of total anglers and outdoors people, and not the only kind of people who make up a federation.

A federation is made up of tournaments anglers, clubbers who are more interested in working with kids, people who want to protect the sport and work on conservation, and people who like the comradery of likeminded persons within those categories or a combination of, mostly on a more local level (the club anglers) - a diverse group of anglers with an overall common interest, but varied key interests.

It helps to take the first step you are taking in realizing, 'hey, I don't know everything so I'll ask.' I ask questions all the time. It is the only way to learn many things. Too many people just make plans and run around without ever asking many or any questions. It's amazing. I guess it is just very hard to impossible for some people to ask questions first, and not just of a few buddies with the exact same interests, but of a broad range of interests. Some people just act. Little or no planning. A good way to fail.

In the other federation in the past, most years less than half, often much less than half, of the members particitpated in any federation tournaments. So yes, there are other reasons they still chose to belong. During years of consistent leadership, and an appearance of a broad range of good works across the various issues, we had (I was on the board during some of those times) about 1,000 members - a great deal of whom were there for other reasons than the state championship or the classic series. In fact, they were quite vocal that they thought those actitivities dominated too much of the federation's time, money and effort.

The board was forced to re-evaluate how we were communicating, how much time was spent talking about the tournaments and even how the tournaments were budgeted. In the end, the classic series was forced to live completely on its own income with no general membership or budget monies going to it. By that time, it had already cost us a couple hundred drop in membership. I always hate to see people repeat the same mistakes of the past when the lessons (should) have been learned already.

I don't know everything, but I have about 20 years experience in being on the boards of 3 organizations through various parts of their history. I'm willing to work with anyone who really wants to work and learn together.

TBF of Michigan board needs to be real clear all the time what money and effort is going to which activities and if they keep looking like they are all about the state championship then they will just be a tournament circuit, not a federation. They will be ineffective as a federation. Don't repeat the same mistakes of the past. Learn from them.

Talk about a great state championship driving membership is putting the horse before the cart. Great state championships come from well run federations made up of a diverse group of persons who believe the federation reflects their varied interests. When we had over 230 members in TBF of Michigan, less than half fished the St. Clair state championship. There are many good anglers out there who get what a federation is and will support it if it looks like it really is a federation.

I chose to stay with The Bass Federation because I felt it was best for the anglers to own their federations and I know a true federation is the best way, especially for anglers in the northern states, to accomplish difficult things like changing a bass season. But it has to be a real federation, not just a tournament circuit. That means people, money and effort dedicated to things other than the tournaments.

Step one is to make it clear that tournaments are not the main priority of the federation. Just one of many activities available to members. If I'm talking to an angler who just wants to fish tournaments and qualify for stuff, sure then I talk about the state championship and advancement opportunities, but not for an excessive amount of time. There are plenty of tournaments already and I know we need the numbers to have a successful federation. The numbers are out there with anglers who will volunteer to help with youth; who will attend an important public meeting; who might make a phone call when needed; who might not be too busy to show up for a cleanup; who will listen to the non-tournament parts of meetings and share that information with others, with their neighbors and coworkers even.

I've spoke at many club meetings over the years and in general, they have wanted to know about the whole picture, not just the state championship. Often clubs specifically asked about youth support. Some asked about club fund raising opportunities. Many of these members will never fish the state championships and other bigger tournamtns with any consistency. They are happy fishing their local club tournaments. I concentrate on why it is important to belong and be counted. I talk about changing the bass season, being counted supporting the conservation work and lobbying for the environment and fishing issues (such as the VHS virus change the federations played a part in). Many times clubs that I personally played a part in getting to join did not even send anyone to the state championship or maybe 1 member went, yet we gained 6, 10, 12 or 15 members.

Sure, some anglers will say i just want to know about the state championship. Just like some will say I just want to know what you do for the future, for the youth, for the environment, for bass fishing. That's what makes a real federation. Diversity. Anglers are diverse group.

So, I guess if you asked me for my real short answer, the first thing I would say is, ask them? Ask the possible members what are you looking for in a federation. And then talk about how TBF of Michigan can meet that need (and if you start running in to common shortcomings in being able to meet certain needs, then it is time for a re-evaluation of plans and priorities). Ask FIRST and keep asking. Then keep listening. Spend too much time talking about the wrong things and they will not join.

Eric, state championship entries have not gone towards TBF of Michigan's general budget. The entry fees went towards expenses for the event and the anglers. Based on past experience, it is best to try to make adult tournaments self-supporting. Two years ago, the board voted to keep something like 20% of any winnings, again mostly to cover the expenses of the event, not to enhance the general budget. No winnings, no benefit back to TBF of Michigan monetarily. You can't count on always having winnings since most years over the long run, we most likely, realistically will not win.

TBF of Michigan expenses were covered by dues, TBF Inc and partner monies, and some raffle income, not state championship entry fees.

Don't know where that talk is coming from since it does not represent what actually happened in the past. Much of the winnings we were lucky to get back went towards the expense of hosting the regional in 2008 also, not the general budget. Again, I am speaking from firsthand experience, not estimating or guessing or making stuff up.

Thanks for your response Dan.

You're right;  It's easy for me to be one-sided in my thinking because the whole reason I joined a club to begin with (when Dennis was in Bums and Babes, too, way back in '94...) was to begin fishing tournaments and learn what they were all about.

I've been guilty of keeping that tournament-only  mind-set for too long.  The reason I quit the club after a few years was because of all the extra dealings you had to participate in to make a successful club.  I didn't care about all the other hoopla - I just wanted to fish.

Even when the TBF of Michigan was formed I thought "Great!  Here's a way to fish in a state-wide fish-off without having to take part in all that other stuff.  Pay my dues, show up and fish.  Perfect!"  Also read...paper club.

Now I don't know if it's because I'm getting older, or because my son is getting older, but that kind of mind-set just doesn't feel right as often as it used to.  Call it perfect timing, or whatever, but when Jeff called a couple weeks back and asked me to get involved I said sure.  Seems like the right thing to do.

So now I'm in a position to try to grow membership in an organization that, in all honesty, I don't know a whole lot about.  Nor do I totally understand what a "true Federation" is, aside from a vague understanding about the importance of conservation efforts and growing the sport through youth activities.

That's why I'm asking some rhetorical questions, just trying to understand.  Because from my background and limited viewpoint as a tournament angler, I just don't understand why people are so opposed to the fish-offs being no entry fee.  Or why people would be opposed to the Federation covering the costs of the team at the divisionals.

Not sure what part of state championship entries go towards the tournament costs and state team expenses not general budget is so hard to understand? Only 20% of the winnings went back to the general budget and that was all needed to cover the cost of hosting the Northern divisional. Not sure what part of that is hard to understand either? But I guess reality for some is whatever they need it to be...

Jighead, I used to want to be a pro angler like many of us. I wanted to fish all the time too so I understand the feelings. We all need that time on the water to recharge and remind ourselves why we do what we do.

Glad you are willing to take some of your valuable time to help out with the other important stuff too now. So often, it is tough to get enough bodies involved to make a difference with everything else that needs to happen to keep the big wheel turning the right way.

I will offer any advice I can if you ask. I would definitely suggest you look into making it to another club's (or two) meeting to find out what is important to them. I've learned a lot over the years from listening to what a variety of anglers have to say and think, particularly the clubbers that many of us don't run into a lot. It is always uplifting for me to hear some of the great things many of the clubs do locally that you don't hear about enough.

Any ideas you have, please share them. Anything you learn from other members, please share them. That way we can all learn more.

Jighead, A bass federation like this in its purest form is a vibrant group of serious amateur anglers who's common interests and activities result in wide spread value and education to the public at large about our sport at all levels.  From the club level up to the board anglers get exposure to opportunities to serve and build the sport and with the help of members with more experience, learn the means to carry this out.  Someone like you who has the depth of exposure to so many levels in fishing from volunteer to commercial interests can have even a wider impact on new anglers learning to value the sport than you already do.

Different clubs have different strengths and when I published a federation magazine it was a privilege to report on the kids events, conservation efforts and charity tournaments as well as the State Championship.  When you tie in all the relationships between the federation, its sponsors and government agencies, there is quite a lot of good being accomplished.  To that end I hope to always be involved and make what contributions I can.

Very nice description of the federation concept Wayne.

Thanks Dan but you have been doing all the heavy lifting on this post.

There are things I remember when starting with my first Federation club, Sterling Heights Bass Anglers.  At first I wanted to see how my skills (as a multi species angler) stacked up to serious bass anglers plus there were friends already in the club so it was a great outlet to hang out plus get serious about some not so serious tournaments and learn, learn, learn.  Once my first winter with the club rolled around I got a first hand look at the way the club, and ultimately the Federation functioned. 

Back then the leadership in the club worked hard to follow the bylaws for a couple of reasons: One...they created an atmosphere of cooperation where all members worked off the same template, two...Sterling Heights was one of the founding clubs of the MBCF and had been around so long, gone through growth cycles and at one point even split.  The bylaws that survived all of that reflected course corrections and successful efforts to address issues that affected all members.  In turn, the club leaned hard on the President to represent them well at the Federation meetings and also hold the board accountable to a different set of bylaws, but those too had stood the test of time.

Meetings during the winter months took on a whole different tone as anglers stopped fishing and started to "review" the bylaws.  It would have been funny had it not been so painful and time consuming to live through but there was usually a new member or two who "knew better" and put up bylaw changes for a vote that would clearly benefit them personally, or serve their agenda.  What I learned that first year was that there was a core group of guys, both board members or active members who did their best to educate the newbies about how the bylaws evolved and how they functioned.  Not surprisingly, these guys didn't make it through the winter and moved on to cause trouble elsewhere.  Sterling Heights has always been a strong club so these distractions ended up being just that, distractions.

Encouraged by this I became more active by writing the club newsletter and doing the photography.  Not long after this I became more active at the Federation level and this is where I would have met you.  There were some really strong personalities on that board and some lively meetings.  Again, a core group of guys that really cared about the Federation concept and it's members were there and Dan, I count you as one of them.

Other than the usual quirks that come with participation in an all volunteer effort, I consider the Federation experience as one the best parts of this sport.  The fishing experience is a yes, the club experience is a yes but the Federation experience is unique in this respect: All aspects of what makes this sport vibrant, healthy and strong are necessarily active and serve to motivate good people to do great things together.  During the last decade we have seen proof of that in the regulations for one, but one shouldn't have to look too hard to find the proof in both young and new anglers who got a well rounded introduction to fishing and found a home in the Federation and a family of anglers with which to share this lifelong endeavor.

Thank Wayne. That really takes me back to my first learning club and what it felt like to be new and getting started. It was a great experience. Still many more persons at that level of the local activities and comradery.

At 52 yrs of age, I am at that point now. Looking for my first club. You guys have no idea what a big help you have been to me in my search. I have been on many committees and boards over the years, and know good ones from bad ones. Looks like a couple of you really helped the fishing community over the years, and I will bee looking for your guidance in the future. Still haven't found that special club.

I don't have a lot of time right now, so I'm going to address just a few things.  I really appreciate DJ Kimmel, WayneC, and Jighead for discussing how to make the TBF more than just another tournament organization and I will post about that in the future. Like Jighead, my priorities may have changed over the years.

What doesn't make sense to me in previous posts is the complaint about the State Team not having enough funding and then eliminating the biggest source of funding for the Team...entry fees.  Like I wrote before, it will take 200 additional members @ $25 apiece with their entire entry fee going to the State Championship to make up for 50 anglers paying $100 to enter the tournament.  Does anybody really think that this will happen?  And is that what everyone wants from the TBF, that it be, pretty much, just another tournament organization?  Is that what FLW Outdoors wants from the TBF?  After all, the TBF is partners with FLW Outdoors. 

Also, why de-fund the kids entry into FLW?  The way to really grow the TBF in any significant way, with any significant meaning is to reach out to more kids and get them involved.  We should be recruiting young people and exposing them to the great sport of fishing and tournament fishing. All fund raising that is done by the TBF should be for kids and conservation.  That's it. 

The State Championship should be a vibrant part of the TBF but it should fund itself.  If Team members want to acquire more funding then they are free to garner it on their own (in other words, get your own sponsors), not by official TBF public fund-raisers. I think it would look really bad to set up a booth at BPS or any other retail outlet or show and say that the fund-raising is for kids and conservation when it is really going to members who want to fish without having to spend any of their own money.

Recruiting young people is the key to big membership numbers.  More later.

My personal priorities are still tournament driven.  All I was saying before is that I can't sit back and take advantage of an organization that provides another avenue to tournament opportunities and possible national tournament success, without getting involved and helping to grow that organization.  How's that for a run-on sentence?  :P 

Looking at the website for the National TBF, it looks to me like TBF is pretty much tournament driven.  Even for the kids.  Believe me, being the father of a 6 year old son, I'm all for getting kids involved in the sport.  But it appears to me that, aside from the Reel Kids casting competitions, it's mostly about tournaments.  Even the Collegiate Fshing program is all about tournaments.  For the most part, what I see from the National level is tournament, tournaments, and more tournaments.

The conservation efforts still confuse me.  At the National level it just looks like the "strength in numbers" thing.  The more members they have in the TBF, the bigger voice they have when it comes to protecting our interest as anglers.  At the local level our 2010 budget for conservation comes in the form of a grant to fund one project (if I remember right from the meeting) to build fish habitat for the Huron River.  Is there something I'm missing?

I'm all for getting kids involved in fishing, and I'm glad there are organizations like the TBF and BASS that go to bat for us in Washington when our interests get threatened by the "anti's".

Rhetorically:  If I don't have kids that I want to get involved in fishing, and if I'm not a tournament fisherman, why should I join Michigan TBF?  What do I get out of it for my $75/yr. membership?

Rhetorically:  If I am a tournament fisherman, why would I want to join Michigan TBF for $75 just to pay another entry fee at the State Fish-Off, and pay my own way to the regional if I make the team?

BINGO!! ;D

JIGHEAD, You are talking my language. Tell me more...

Conservation, youth, and fishing....we have something for everyone.

Strength in numbers is a big factor.

I look forward to working with you to help this Federation grow.

                                 Jon jezierski
                       membership growth committee

This discussion is really getting into the stuff that really matters and that is way cool!  Perhaps the following will answer some questions:

For the period that I was editor of a 32 page magazine for the MBCF which came out 6 times a year at its' peak, one topic was overlooked by many because there was a status quo which everyone was comfortable with.  The cost of producing the magazine was significant.  It's not only possible but quite likely that advertising took up 50% or perhaps even more space in the magazine.  This looks good until you examine the balance sheet and find out that there were only a handful of paid ads, and those paid ads were mostly small.  The majority of space was dedicated to fulfilling contractural advertising committments for sponsors.  To take it even further, nearly 100% of that sponsor space was directly related to a tournament trail run by the Federation and then of course, the State Championship.

Year after year I took the lead by researching the financial and intangible effects of sponsor contributions and supplying the board with reports that showed a cause and effect which directly benefits the membership at large.  I knew that somewhere down the road this issue would come up: "Why are we spending so much to publish the magazine?"  At the end of the day, the facts bore out that the sponsorship support far outweighed the publishing expenses.  The road to this conclusion is a long one however and there were some who couldn't wrap their minds around the cost/benefit analysis but instead focused on simple math: Paid advertising - publishing cost = large deficit.

One other cost issue was at the forefront every year and that was a tournament trail put on the by the Federation.  By and large it was self sufficient but there was a period where that was in question.  The membership through the club presidents had a right to challenge the necessity of having this circuit which for all practical purposes serviced only around 60 members or more from a Federation of around 1000.  Personally, I didn't fish the circuit but because of my research, understood the funding position perfectly.  Many sponsors, especially big ones simply would not be Federation sponsors at all unless this trail was running.  The benefits that flowed from strong relationships with our sponsors (tournament trial = more advertising coverage) spilled over into the State Championship and Youth programs.

I know that some of you are in business for yourselves and are very familiar with how some income streams must exist in order for certain services to exist or be further developed.  In many cases, the choice of what works best to provide that income isn't left up to us but is chosen for us by market demands.  We tolerate some things so the business can thrive overall.  In the angling world, tournament fishing drives a huge part of the market, captures the attention of viable sponsors and advertisers, has a schedule of events and the kind of drama that can put a part of the angling experience in the public eye which has wide appeal.  At the grassroots level a larger percentage of anglers carry the water for kids events, conservation and the overall management of the Federation.  It can seem like an upside down set of priorities but if none of the parts get too far out of balance, the system seems to do the most good for the most people.

This soliloquy isn't an attempt to justify any specific positions that are currently being taken within the Federation.  The range is wide and deep and I would rather address each separately when appropriate.  Hopefully, this helps to pull together an image of a framework which has and can work well when members contribute their strengths to the effort.  There is truly no way to make everyone happy, especially as the group grows but there is no substitute for treating everyone with respect.  When everything is functioning properly, rules are followed and enforced, equal consideration is given to all efforts (kids, conservation, state championship) and the value of the Federation experience is a top priority.

Funny. I think we are talking about balance as you point out though some people think it is some kind of anti-tournament (funny considering we have run and/or fished over hundreds of tournaments among us), or that we are just complaining and hurting things (what's that thing about free speech and free press, stating opinions freely that seems popular in this country??) when what we are trying to do is make sure the balance is known, acknowledged, understood and truly being considered honestly by new leadership that started out like it was leaning way too hard towards the smallest number of anglers out there - serious tournament anglers.

In the past there were at best about 19,000 BASS members in Michigan. The federation has never been much more than 1,000 members. There are over 400,000 bass anglers in Michigan! It is correct to know your target audience and meet their needs, but zoom in too close and you immediately limit yourself too small to me viable. Wayne you pointed out a more realistic description of the types of members we need to attract to be a viable federation.

I think we want to make sure they don't repeat common mistakes of the past that they had seemed to be making. I wait to see that they follow up recent words with actual action that proves they mean them.

I understand Jighead's latest statements and always appreciate that people state their opinions. You succinctly echoed the dilemmas that have always dogged bass federations. I believe there is a way to balance them successfully considering there are states doing it successful, including northern states. These states have many members who do all the range of things that make a successful federation and they do a lot more than just talk about the state championship. It is a focal point, which is fine considering many of us do enjoy competitive fishing, but it is not the only point.

In Team Bass at least half of the guys don't fish tournaments outside of Club events...Most of our guys are in our club for the comraderie and to hang out with a group of guys with like interests in a somewhat low key atmosphere....I am fairly new to Team Bass, I have only been part of their team for a few years, but to me they represent what a club should be about....It all started with strong leadership and has built from there.....

What are the percentages of TBF that are Paper Clubs VS Clubs that actually have meetings and participate in tournaments and events at the "Club Level"...I know the Motor city guys do, but I am not sure about the rest...I know EBA was rolling along pretty well but that has kind of broken up..I know Brian's club has alot going on with the Juniors...Wayne, I am not real sure about the status of your club...

Out of the 100 members or so how many are in active clubs that foster growth other than the state fish off????

Not trying to point fingers just trying to get a feel for what may be the root of a problem and where growth could occur...

Quote from: Jighead on November 18, 2009, 01:49:15 PM

...Rhetorically:  If I am a tournament fisherman, why would I want to join Michigan TBF for $75 just to pay another entry fee at the State Fish-Off, and pay my own way to the regional if I make the team?

Again, for now, I have no time but I did want to address this one point. 

The answer is simple.  The pot at the end of the rainbow is huge.  For relatively little money, the rewards can be extremely high.  Pros have to pay thousands to get the same potential opportunity.  Plus the fact that every step of the way the experience is amazing.  It's definitely worth a few bucks to go through it.

I do appreciate your willingness to discuss everything that's involved with the TBF.  That's what it will take to make the organization stronger.

Thanks guys  :)

motocross269...What I have is in all respects, a paper club.  For me, it's all about the real issue of having time to participate so what I can do is volunteer for things now and then when opportunities come up.  As for the rest of the club the current system allows for me to give them the opportunity to fish a top flight amateur event like the State Championship.  These guys also volunteer and contribute to our sport in the best way they can.  For the record, Combat Fishing does hold impromptu board meetings with P, VP and Sec. and keep minutes.

I was told today that the majority of clubs in the TBF fall into this category as well.  This can account for many things but to my way of thinking it has just evolved to this point and where we take it from here is what it's all about.  We could have started out with too many clubs interested in kids or in conservation and the issues would pretty much be the same.  The opportunity is always there for any club to step up or board to step up and strengthen our ties to the kids, outdoors, our national partners, lawmakers, communities and to each other.  It seems to me that active work in any of these areas should be welcome.

With the excessvive amount of tournaments we have in Michigan allready Im pretty happy my "paper" club does not add to my allready busy work, life and tournament schedule, the 6 to 12 mandatory meetings a year that tournament based clubs have is very hard to make and stay in the club, employed, raise my kids, keep my wife happy, etc, etc.

The paper club schedule is great, we meet a couple times a year, we stay in touch by phone, email, chat, web sites, IM's, forums and tournament events, we meet new peaple through each other, fish the same trails and partner up in team tournaments, theres alot of comraderie, sharing of knowledge etc between us so to say or imply that a non tournament /reguler mandatory meeting club is not at "Club Level" may not be exactley true and may be just sounding like your saying "My club is better than your club" in addition if I wasnt part of the club that I am the TBF would be of no use or interest to me and I likeley wouldnt know the TBF existed.

The modern technology and instant communication age is here, the majority of club requirements, bylaws, needs, meetings, functions, etc were created long before the personel computer and times have changed dramatically...I think my clubs better than yours  ;)  ;D 

That's so cool!  The wheels are turning upstairs as you rattle off a list of high-tech options.  Thanks for the help and support.

BTW - I think my spell checker is better than yours  ;) ;)

can someone tell me if my club is fishing the state fish-off if we have to be a "subcriber member" of FLW or a "competetive member" i'm geussing competetive .......thanks ......

You have to be a competitive member. If you are joining a TBF club, you will have to pay your FLW Outdoors dues through your TBF club to TBF of Michigan.

Hey guys,
With all the discussion over youth and conservation just thought I'd pass this on.  

The TBF's next fundraiser will be gift wraping at BPS on Nov 28th but we are still short about 4 people.  If you are willing to give us a hand it would be greatly appreciated.  With this one fundraiser we should be able to fund our conservation project for 2010 and start putting a dent in our youth funding for the year.

The money involved with this event is pretty significant relative to our 2010 youth and conservation budget.  Contact  President Jeff Cox for more details.  I realize there is already a post but this topic has way more views.

Thanks, Matt

Brian Belevender wanted some time on that prime weekend to bring some of the youth kids in. They've done a great job at any event like this in the past. If the board is short on volunteers, they should give him and the kids some of the time to help raise their own money. Should have been a priority to give them some of the time right up front like we have done in the past??

Dan you make it sound as if the Youth TBF is different than TBF of Mi ?
I totaly disagree with what you are making it sound like the TBF is when you say "their own money".

This great opportunity @ BPS was brought up discussed and moved on from at the last meeting, I think its a great opportunity for the TBF of Michigan and the TBF of Michigan has 3 goals, YOUTH, CONSERVATION, TOURNAMENT EVENTS...am I missing something  about what the TBF stands for or do we need to make 3 different organizations and bank accounts ?

is it not a general non profit fund that gets disbursed/earmarked between youth, conservation and tournament events ?

why cant Brian and any of the kids donate their time to the general fund during a TBF fundraiser ?

I think having the kids there would make it more attractive to the shoppers, rather than a bunch of grumpy old fishermen  ;D

 >:(GRUMPY OLD FISHERMEN.....count me in and I'm bringing my two yr old daughter? :'( :'(

Does anyone know how late we will be wrapping till? I have to work till 6, and it takes me just less than an hour to get there. If I can help, I will.

Quote from: cast n blast on November 19, 2009, 07:01:22 PM
With the excessvive amount of tournaments we have in Michigan allready Im pretty happy my "paper" club does not add to my allready busy work, life and tournament schedule, the 6 to 12 mandatory meetings a year that tournament based clubs have is very hard to make and stay in the club, employed, raise my kids, keep my wife happy, etc, etc.

The paper club schedule is great, we meet a couple times a year, we stay in touch by phone, email, chat, web sites, IM's, forums and tournament events, we meet new peaple through each other, fish the same trails and partner up in team tournaments, theres alot of comraderie, sharing of knowledge etc between us so to say or imply that a non tournament /reguler mandatory meeting club is not at "Club Level" may not be exactley true and may be just sounding like your saying "My club is better than your club" in addition if I wasnt part of the club that I am the TBF would be of no use or interest to me and I likeley wouldnt know the TBF existed.

The modern technology and instant communication age is here, the majority of club requirements, bylaws, needs, meetings, functions, etc were created long before the personel computer and times have changed dramatically...I think my clubs better than yours  ;)  ;D  

Skip, I wasn't saying "My club is better than yours"...I was trying to make the point that something attracts over 50 percent of our members to a BASS club other than the state fish off....That is 14 (approximately) members that are there to just fish our events and be involved in what we do other than the State fish off....You tell me why those members are there and continue to be a part of what we do every year?????

If you are getting together a few times a year and fishing I wouldn't call your club a true paper club...

What you have going on may work great for you...A semi serious tournament angler.. but is it the ticket to growing the TBF numbers???  To a point maybe...The TBF will never grow above 250-300 anglers as long as the focus is on paper clubs and the state fish off...You can write that in Stone...

I am not saying eliminate "Paper Clubs" heck I am starting one myself but is that the best path for growing the Federation with involved, active members???.......Probably not...

History proves me right..Just look at the struggles the Federation has on manning events like the outdoors shows, Jr State fish off, etc etc.....If every member would do one event a year how much better off would we be???....A lack of active, involved members slows growth...A majority of members want to fish the state fish off and nothing more...Some here have said that themselves....

Heck IMHO Brian should have to turn boats away from the JR fish off because we are chomping at the bit to help his Jrs out.....

Jighead in order to grow TBF to a number rivaling some of the states with a large membership you are going to have to consider the recreational angler...The guy with a 17 foot Bass tracker that takes his kids out on the weekends and wants to learn a little more about bass fishing..The college kid that doesn't have cash for a new boat but would like to get out on the weekends...The ex hard core angler that wants to take a step back and just fish for fun and a few opens........Those types of guys are the ones that will bring the numbers up and the only way to give them what they are looking for is through viable clubs....One tournament a year isn't going to do it....No matter what the opportunity...

As a side note I do believe the board's plan to have a state fish off on both the west side and east side this year will increase the membership..The plan's for the MI living the dream package are awesome...I wouldn't be surprised to see it grow to over 200 members this year, but how do we grow above the number of serious tourney anglers available is the key to having "THE" State of Michigan Federation..

I know you werent saying your club was any better I was just saying it might be seen as saying that and I was saying that things have improved ALOT in the last 20 years and that the 20 to 30 year old club standards could handle a little tweeking like adding paper clubs, either way its all good Brian.

The only way were going to get real growth is through public awareness and to stop sounding like we are an organization that is divided, theres a couple things in the works that will be discussed at the next meeting that may help the TBF be more in the public eye.

Theres just been too much negativity posted by some members lateley and that certailey cant help growth, I know theres been some problems in the past and those issues are being addressed and Im sure the TBF will have some more issues in the future as well.

have a great weekend bud, Im out the door to fish Erie  ;D

Quote from: motocross269 on November 21, 2009, 01:05:19 AM
Jighead in order to grow TBF to a number rivaling some of the states with a large membership you are going to have to consider the recreational angler...The guy with a 17 foot Bass tracker that takes his kids out on the weekends and wants to learn a little more about bass fishing..The college kid that doesn't have cash for a new boat but would like to get out on the weekends...The ex hard core angler that wants to take a step back and just fish for fun and a few opens........Those types of guys are the ones that will bring the numbers up and the only way to give them what they are looking for is through viable clubs....One tournament a year isn't going to do it....No matter what the opportunity...

I agree Brian.

Giving that kind of fisherman the experience he/she is looking for won't be acheived via paper clubs alone.  Someone that wants to get more involved in the sport by joining a club, learning and fishing with others, and maybe start fishing some tournaments is instantly going to shy away from his/her one opportunity being the State-Fish Off.  Even as a co-angler.

Good point.

c n b: I hope your trip to Erie was a good one...

Quote from: cast n blast on November 21, 2009, 05:45:17 AM
The only way were going to get real growth is through public awareness and to stop sounding like we are an organization that is divided, theres a couple things in the works that will be discussed at the next meeting that may help the TBF be more in the public eye.

We have had an organization that was functioning cohesively albeit with all the normal, and I do mean normal, dysfunctions that come with an all volunteer effort.  At that point, if the folks who lay claim to a desire to promote and strengthen parts of what we do together contributed their time and resources first, embraced and respected the value of experienced and active high profile members, made the traditions and bylaws of an established and successful formula for a healthy amateur angling organization a priority and created an atmosphere of trust and confidence that they have the best interests of all the members at the forefront, the public image would be strong and the draw for anglers to become members would be an irresistible force.  Instead, an aggressive move was made "to divide" the organization into a disorganization of special interests.  What we do about it now will determine what our public image will be in the coming months.  Do we have the strength of character to run over a bump in the road and come out on the other side stronger than before?  There are solid indications that we can.  This thread alone has the potential to educate folks who are looking for somewhere to become engaged in a group which is capable of looking out for them and the best interests of bass fishing in Michigan.

Moto...I'm all for seeing the SC grow too.  Keeping the new people engaged over the long haul can only be helped if they see us lead by example and I look forward to sharing in the effort.

Good post Wayne.....

It really is a privilege work with a great group of leaders like we have in the TBF.  It's all good as long as we get there together.

Quote from: cast n blast on November 20, 2009, 04:08:16 PM
Dan you make it sound as if the Youth TBF is different than TBF of Mi ?
I totaly disagree with what you are making it sound like the TBF is when you say "their own money".

This great opportunity @ BPS was brought up discussed and moved on from at the last meeting, I think its a great opportunity for the TBF of Michigan and the TBF of Michigan has 3 goals, YOUTH, CONSERVATION, TOURNAMENT EVENTS...am I missing something  about what the TBF stands for or do we need to make 3 different organizations and bank accounts ?

is it not a general non profit fund that gets disbursed/earmarked between youth, conservation and tournament events ?

why cant Brian and any of the kids donate their time to the general fund during a TBF fundraiser ?

You read way too much into what I typed. Kids like and need to learn and do things. That's a big part of what a youth program is about. You can get them started on a bike by holding the handle bar and running alongside, but at some point you have to let go and let them peddle along on their own. Give them some independence.

I completely disagree with your statement about the kids donating their time to us (the adults) if that is what you mean. We are there for them. Not the other way around.

It has always been customary in the past to track the youth money separate anyway. Especially money we received because of the youth program which I feel is the best way to do it. We used some of that money to pay TBF national youth memberships the past couple of years. Great idea. I was disappointed to see it kicked off the budget. It should be a priority as far as this member is concerned.

Not trying to get into it with you at all Dan but Im quite sure about how I read your post and you making it sound like the youth wont be benifitting from the fund raiser, the TBF stands for youth conservation and yes tournament fishing, Im quite certain the donations from the BPS gift wrapping would be going to the youth in part or full so to make my post say I was asking them to donate their time to "US" is totaly untrue, maybe you should re read my post or here, let me just copy and paste exactley what I said.

"why cant Brian and any of the kids donate their time to the general fund during a TBF fundraiser ?"

If Brian and the kids dont care about the TBF general fund (which funds youth events) then they obviousley dont care about the effort the TBF and the members are putting forth for the youth and conservation.

ya know Dan...theres ALOT of different ways the youth could hold fund raising projects to earmark 100% of their $ if thats what they want to do, are they allready doing this ?

I get hit up dozens of times a year by kids selling candy bars and asking for donations to fund field trips, girl scout projects, boy scouting projects, etc, etc.
Ive never seen the youth TBF doing this, Im sure Im missing something becouse Im new to the TBF...so enlighten me bud, how are they raising money to help pay for the youth TBF events or is it all or mostley on us (the adults)?

Im pretty sure the majority is done by the adult members not to mention the adults who pull $50k rigs full of expensive fuel to the lake to help the TBF youth hold their events.

Dont get me Wrong, Im fine with us donating our time, boats, fuel, etc to help youth's and conservation but to plant a seed (your post) and make it sound like the TBF youth is getting jipped is TOTALY insulting!

honest question Im asking here Dan becouse Im rather new at knowing about the TBF and I am somewhat un informed but make no mistake that just becouse Im not 100% informed about the TBF it doesnt mean that Im clueless about clubs and how general funds get distrubuted.

Ya know what Dan Im just going to put my honest oppinion out there instead of tap dance around you any further.

After reading several posts including yours, doing a little research and Q&A and seeing your protest at the meeting I see your obviousley un pleased that you and Dennis are no longer on the board and in control of an organization that you helped bring into Michigan.

I feel your actions have become personel and are not 100% pure toward the betterment of the TBF.

I feel 100% certain that your post about Brian and the kids not manning the table at BPS to put 100% of the funds to the youth fund was an attemp to plant a destructive seed on the fundraiser and or a board member or the president.

You own the biggest Bass site in michigan and control the delete button, you have a group of great guys that trust you 100% and blindley follow you becouse they respect you and either dont know the whole story or dont have the time to learn ther whole story and listen to you.
using your site to influince peaple to your beliefs which at times have been TOTALY one sided will only hurt you in the long run IMO.

The ONLY reason I have become involved in the TBF is becouse I found out there was a ton of things that were wrong in the TBF and could be fixed and I would like to help, in addition there has been alot of opportunities that were not capitalized on, certifacates and donated product that was never made available to ALL TBF members until this year when several members became wise to this and stepped in to fix the problem.

I think theres two important things that does need to be kept in mind, WE DO THIS BECOUSE WE FISH AND WE CARE.

This IS The Bass Fedearation of Michigan, the majority of us are Bass tournament anglers, WE DO THIS TO PROTECT OUR RESOURCE FOR OUR CHILDREN AND FUTURE GENERATIONS, if it wasnt about fishing and protecting fishing for future generations we would sell our boats and donate the $ to a childrens hospital or something.

going back to my original question

Why cant Brian or his youth members and family donate their time to the TBF fundraiser ?

Honestley I have to say that if Brian is divided in the TBF just becouse he is the youth director and wont participate towards the general fund...the one and only fund/bank account of the TBF then I think we need a new youth director that cares about the TBF as a whole.
no dis respect intended Brian I just dont like the division of what should be a sole entity standing for youth, conservation and fishing.

My personel oppinion is the TBF hasnt grown like it should have becouse it has been un organized, under exploited and divided.

You all can do this without me Im quite certain but honestley if the TBF stays divided and we keep getting influential members (like yourself Dan) making negative posts I dont want any part of the TBF and I dont see why any one else would want to be a part of it either and the TBF membership will not grow therefore it will crumble....who's gonna lose out then ?

One of the things that realy frustrates me the most is Im sure Tom @ BPS or other managers or employees or other TBF sponsors are reading this and when they see a post thats is in no way accurate about the youth benefitting or not benefitting from this fund raiser or the TBF funds it could jeopardize future TBF fundraising opportunities!

This is the FIRST Paragraph in the TBF of MI by-laws:
The TBF of MI, Inc., will be governed by a Board of Directors composed of nine (9) members.
The primary goal of the TBF of MI, Inc., shall be to promote conservation of our natural resources be involved with youth incentives and preserve the sport of bass fishing.

Hmmm, nothing about a State Championship.

Now for a few other things, on October 20, an e-mail was sent out via TBF bulk e-mail and written by TBF of MI President, Jeff Cox, that stated that the dues increase would be necessary in order to fund the "free" State Championship.  Once the cat is out of the bag, it's hard to put back in no matter who says what to the contrary after that.

There can be no disputing that the $5 dues for the youth to National TBF was paid by the Michigan TBF this past year and that practice was voted to be discontinued for next year.

I've also read that Jeff Cox can obtain additional funding for the State Championship should fund-raising efforts fall short.  The question is, fall short of what?  $2,000, $5,000, $8,000?  I've already pointed out (which nobody seems to want to address, by the way) that 50 anglers (which is a very low number) at $100 apiece is $5,000 somebody has to replace with fund-raising.  Does anybody think realistically that fund-raising can reach that much cash? Or what if 200 anglers participate in the State Championship? Does that mean that fund-raising has to provide $20,000?

What that seems to imply is that all or most fund-raising money will go to the State Championship.  Is there a document somewhere that states what percentage of fund-raising dollars goes to what activity?  That might be helpful.

Also, there are some members who are lobbying for greatly increasing the money that goes to the state team.  How are you going to accomplish that considering that you took away the biggest source of revenue, the entry fees?  Nobody has bothered to explain that either.  The numbers just don't work.  Sorry.

Lastly, I guess to some it is wrong to express an opinion that disagrees with certain other members.  Some say that it might harm the Federation to do so.  It seems to me that it's much more harmful when other members say that one shouldn't express an opinion unless it agrees with those in charge.  That kind of attitude is not only wrong, but, dangerous.

PS-As far as following someone blindly...read every word of what has been sent out via e-mail and this thread and THEN tell me who is following who blindly.

Quote from: cast n blast on November 22, 2009, 10:36:17 AM
"why cant Brian and any of the kids donate their time to the general fund during a TBF fundraiser ?"

Because president Jeff Cox told Brian no when he asked to bring in the kids. That makes your attempted and nonsensical point about Brian and the kids not caring kind of moot.

Quote from: cast n blast on November 22, 2009, 10:36:17 AM
I get hit up dozens of times a year by kids selling candy bars and asking for donations to fund field trips, girl scout projects, boy scouting projects, etc, etc.
Ive never seen the youth TBF doing this, Im sure Im missing something becouse Im new to the TBF...so enlighten me bud, how are they raising money to help pay for the youth TBF events or is it all or mostley on us (the adults)?

We always allowed to kids to have their time in the past with a few fundraisers and they did very well. And if you tell people you are raising money for youth and conservation then the money better go to youth and conservation. How many people will donate money if you tell them it is going so a bunch of adults can go fishing? You ever have a grownup come up to you and ask you to buy his candy bars so he can afford to be on the state team? Would you buy a candy bar then? I think I know what the answer from most people would be. And again - see above where I say we are here for the kids. Not the other way around. I was very clear in that and don't feel I will have much trouble with most people understanding why and what that means.

Quote from: cast n blast on November 22, 2009, 10:36:17 AM
You own the biggest Bass site in michigan and control the delete button, you have a group of great guys that trust you 100% and blindley follow you becouse they respect you and either dont know the whole story or dont have the time to learn ther whole story and listen to you.
using your site to influince peaple to your beliefs which at times have been TOTALY one sided will only hurt you in the long run IMO.

You are apparently willing to act out only knowing one side of the story. I don't recall you asking me any questions. But then you are close friends with Jeff, not me, so that may be why you are willing to just take his word for things. That is your choice. But you may want to rethink about what is really insulting - you insinuating that members and visitors to this site, and my friends, can't think for themselves. I will repeat an obvious point I have made before, no one is forcing you or anyone else to be one this site or read any particular posts. I certainly don't have the power to bend people to my will. They all have a will of their own and will make up their own minds.

I only delete things that break the rules of this site, particularly personal attacks, and or things that might harm the success of my business - GreatLakesBass.com. I force no one to be here. I am very glad that many people choose to visit. Thanks to those persons.

Since this is the United States, and not the USSR or some other totalitarian society, and I am a TBF member, I think I will continue to ask questions and state any disagreements I might have like anyone else has the right to do in a country founded on free speech and freedom of the press - important counterweights to attempts by bodies to do what they want when they want. Of course, if critical decisions are no longer made unilaterally by the least experienced board member(s), if the new board makes an effort to improve planning and make realistic, quality decisions particularly based on finding out what all members want first verses a few buddies, I won't have to ask many questions.

As far as Brian Belevender, I think it is a shame to try to smear the one board member who does 99% of the work in the most successful part of TBF of Michigan. Why would anyone in their right mind do something so counterproductive like that? I am the one asking the questions, not Brian. Brian is just doing his usual great job which is the most positive public impact TBF of Michigan has going for them. I'm not on the board. I'm a member and I am asking questions. If the board is divided, that is up to the board to say, but at the last meeting, they seemed like they were working together once they got to hear the new plans that were made, announced publicly and only then shared with them. A little like ready, fire, aim, but they appeared to be working through it.

I wasn't the only member who had questions or disagreed with things either if I recall the meeting correctly. Acting first and planning later will cause that to happen, along with confusion and problems interpreting actions verses meaning. All of that is coming from things sent out from and stated by the board, not from me. I just tried to point out what I believed the consequences might be. Based on my 20 years of hands on experience with these types of things.

Excellent points cameraguy. Those are some of the things I tried to explain privately prior to the meeting. I expect, based on comments at the meeting and since by a number of people, that you are repeating points many are thinking now.

I hope the board at minimum, splits money evenly amongst conservation, youth and tournaments if they mention them to the public as to why they are doing any fundraiser. If someone asks what are you raising money for and you mention these topics to get them to donate, to not be fair to each program would seem fraudulent. So I hope people don't tell a lot of people money is going towards something it doesn't go towards...

A lot more people will donate money to youth and conservation than vague or general things like 'operating expenses' (from my many years of involvement in many public fundraisers) and particularly if you say it is for things like adults going fishing. I think the non-youth and conservation fundraising should be non-public events or efforts among the members. Maybe a raffle as long as people aren't misled when they ask what we are raising money for. Plus, the onus on raising money for the state championship should be on the anglers who will benefit from the efforts.

Again, a lot easier to get other people to help with fundraisers when you tell them it is for youth and conservation, but not as many people will want to help if you tell them it is for adults to go fishing. Same deal, if you tell them they are helping raise money for youth and conservation, then a significant amount of the money raised better go towards youth and conservation. Very easy concepts to understand. You don't mislead people.

If we take your mention of $5,000 for the state championship, then we need to raise $15,000 so we can give $5,000 to youth and $5,000 to conservation or close to those amounts since the general fund doesn't need a whole lot more for things other than those areas. Of course, if we only raise $5,000 total, then that would mean a little under $1,700 for each area.

Now of course, if we hold a fundraiser and tell everyone helping and who donate it is for the state team and nothing else, then it would be appropriate to give any monies raised to the state team. That might be successful with certain types of fundraisers. Particularly those that involve the anglers who will benefit.

Quote from: cast n blast on November 22, 2009, 10:36:17 AM

"why cant Brian and any of the kids donate their time to the general fund during a TBF fundraiser ?"

If Brian and the kids dont care about the TBF general fund (which funds youth events) then they obviousley dont care about the effort the TBF and the members are putting forth for the youth and conservation.

That's a pretty big leap from the kids trying to fund themselves as best as they can to "...they obviously don't care."  TBF is about contributing to the betterment of the environment and teaching kids to fish.  It's our privilege to do so.  This relationship is paternal and not symbiotic.  Hopefully with our help they will grow to be quality TBF adult members and can make their contributions to the general fund then.

If you can, please try to be more positive with your posts.  We've been having a good discussion that anyone could read to learn more about the TBF and how it functions.  Certainly, you can post whatever you like but "...plant a destructive seed" is pretty over the top.  Don't post angry...don't post angry...

Try to wrap your mind around the issues we are discussing instead of taking thing so personally.  It helps everyone a lot.  More folks will post if they can add to a lively discussion but less so if they think they will be labeled without justification as being a "blind follower."  It's the first time in my life I've been called that and anyone who knows me would have a good laugh about it.  In fact, I won't feign being offended because I'm too busy going rogue. 

Your interest and passion are obvious and it sounds like you could really be a blessing to any group of people you become involved with.  Perhaps you could be a good influence on people when they think the ends justify the means and help them understand how following the bylaws is a good thing.  When they want to bring the competition into our organization you could help them learn cooperation.  That's how an organization can thrive when everyone is looking out for each other.  That would make you an influential member in you're own right and I guarantee you that there are a lot of good folks who would be happy to work alongside of you to accomplish these things.

I was not at the TBF meeting but I am a member in good standing so I have a few questions and comments of my own.

Was the decision to raise dues made by the board only?
Was the decision to stop paying the $5.00 youth dues made by the board only?
Was the decision to make the 2010 fish off a no entry tournament made by the board only?
Was the decision to pay TBF and FLW dues for life for past presidents made by the board only?

If somebody would have asked me I would have said no to all of those decisions. Nobody asked me. Did any of the general membership have a say in those decisions?

I would agree to a raise in dues if I knew for certain that it was not to fund the state fish off or the state team. Those things should be self supporting in my opinion. Why would you eliminate the biggest source of funding for those events [entry fees]? If entry fees are not the biggest source of funds what is?

I don't understand not paying the youth dues. It's $5.00 each. Really.

I don't agree at all with paying the TBF and FLW dues for life for past presidents. In my opinion that money would be better spent on...TBF youth dues. Perhaps future TBF presidents?

Willie

Quote from: Hooksetter on November 23, 2009, 11:02:21 AM
I was not at the TBF meeting but I am a member in good standing so I have a few questions and comments of my own.

Was the decision to raise dues made by the board only?

This decision was made by TBF of Michigan president Jeff Cox before the meeting. The board then apparently voted on it earlier in the day and announced it to the presidents. No vote sought from the members.

Quote from: Hooksetter on November 23, 2009, 11:02:21 AM
Was the decision to stop paying the $5.00 youth dues made by the board only?

This decision was announced to the presidents at the meeting. It appears to it might come from a proposed budget possibly presented to the board members though I do not know for sure who proposed or pushed for this change. No vote sought from the members.

Quote from: Hooksetter on November 23, 2009, 11:02:21 AM
Was the decision to make the 2010 fish off a no entry tournament made by the board only?

This decision was made by TBF of Michigan president Jeff Cox before the meeting. The board then apparently voted on it earlier in the day and announced it to the presidents. No vote sought from members.

Quote from: Hooksetter on November 23, 2009, 11:02:21 AM
Was the decision to pay TBF and FLW dues for life for past presidents made by the board only?

From what I can tell, this decision was proposed by a board member at the board meeting. The board approved it and announced it to the members. No vote sought from the members.

Before the 'attack dogs' come after me again ;D, please note I am not stating my opinion above just reporting what Jeff Cox told me verbally or by email before the meeting, and by what the board did at the meeting. I would not expect anyone to get mad at anyone else for accurately reporting what occurred.

Yes Willie Dan is right on all the changes, they were big and aggressive changes, I may or may not agree with the changes and I dont want to get into that honestley becouse Jeff is a good friend of mine.
all I can say is Jeff stuck himself out there and stated at the meeting he has financial backing if his new plan fails, I believe there is other TBF states that operate similer to the new plan but they do have more members therefore they have a much larger general fund like we need to achieve.
I personely would not have done what Jeff did becouse of the low membership and risk but I only say that becouse I know he needs club help and solidarity to achieve his goals, if he does not get the help he needs from "US" the new plan may not work IMO.
I will do everything I can to help and I hope Jeff gets that kind of help from you guys as well.....it is what a united club should be able to do.

I would just like it to be clear that Im not influienced by Jeff and Jeff has nothing to do with any of my posts or oppinions and I realy dont know if he shares my same oppinion, I cant get ahold of him becouse he has been hunting in Virginia for several days now.

In my oppinion seperating a fund raiser for the TBF and designating it to go 100% to the youth is not united in the 3 mission statements of the TBF (Conservation, Youth, to preserve the sport of Bass Fishing) and saying that the Youth members and family wont be at least asked to be able to help just doesnt sound right to me.

Dan Im not trying to go after or attack you, I have more important things in my life to do, my point is I think theres a problem with seperation within one organization that has 3 missions.

For example if you donote to the salvation army would you ask the guy at the kettle to let you know when is the best time to donate your money so that it went to your cause of choice instead of Admin and operation fees to operate the company thats doing the good deed...I mean realy guys you gotta realize when you donate to the kettle some of that goes to fees, so what do they need to do...have 2 kettles, one so you choose to donate to the needy and another to choose to donate towards the company costs that keep the company alive to donate to the needy...hey we could make a blue kettle  ::)

if you thought like that youd pass that kettle up and Im afraid that kind of thinking would make some TBF fund raisers near impossible to have success, thats just not right when the very same group is the one out there donating their time and equiptment to achieve the primary goal.

you seem to be making it sound like all the fund raising is for the state team and thats not true, heres a copy of the TBF bulk mail that Jeff sent out before he left to go hunting.

" I would just like to thank those who have offered to help out with the gift wraping at BPS on Nov 28th but we are still short about 4 people.  If you are willing to give us a hans it would be greatly appreciated.  With this one fundraiser we should be able to fund our conservation project for 2010 and start putting a dent in our youth funding for the year."

Just becouse its a non profit organization doesnt mean that it doesnt have operating costs it just means no one is making an income off your donated money.

by the way it has allways cost state team qualifiers money out of their own pocket to go to regionals so the qualifiers still dont profit unless they win, the state team recieved $83 cash each to drive to Iowa and fuel their boat....kinda short if you ask me and I kinda know how much it costs since I just got back from Iowa, it cost me several hundred $.
By the way Im not one of the peaple that was trying to get more state team money and I dont think that thats Jeff's goal right now either, I think being able to fish for that kind of award without an entry fee is worth the gas $ to go to Iowa and other places.

I dont know how much clearer I can spell out my point and again Im not looking to "attack" you Dan.

I realy hope we can grow the TBF and I hope the rest of you are willing to lend a hand, we as fisherman, parents and conservationists REALY do need an organization like the TBF, its here, its up and running thanx to Dan Kimmel and Dennis Beltz, lets make it grow to the membership it needs to be....it cant do it without us!

I for one am reconsidering my thought of joining the TBF for the first time. First off, I have contacted three different clubs to see about joining, and paying all my dues. After one contact with all three of them, I cant get an answer from any of them again. Maybe they dont need new members. Four days ago, I made a post on here volunteering to come to BPS to help wrap, all I asked was how late it was going to be going on. I still havent recieved an answer, so I guess I wont help there. Then, I see all the bickering on here, and it looks to me like there is some questionable tactics going on. When you have an organization like this, you need more than one person making decisions. Dan, I have never met you, and I am certainly not "following you blindly" but What you said about the kids helping wrap gifts was right on the money. I will remain an avid fisherman. I will continue to teach my 5 grandkids all about fishing and conservation. And, I will remain friends with a few people on here. But, I doubt if you will ever see me at a TBF State Fish-off.

Thanks for the answers to my questions Dan. I appreciate it. I went to the Michigan TBF website but it is not easy to tell what went on at the meetings by the minutes. I'm sure every word, suggestion etc. is not recorded. As far as you being "attacked" again I think most people on here realize the difference between the messenger and the message, and I hope it does not happen.

It sounds to me that the board holds absolute power to make all the decisions concerning how the TBF resources are disbursed. It seems that I as a single member have absolutely no say in anything. Prove to me that I am wrong. Put these 4 issues up for vote by the entire membership. In fact, I think all big issues should be decided that way. The good of the many should outweigh the good of the few. Just my opinion.

The bottom line as I see it is this:

The dues were raised $10.00, the entry fee for the 2010 state fish off was eliminated, the past presidents will get their TBF and FLW dues paid for life and the kids were told to cough up $5.00. All that was done without even saying, " Hey rest of the members, what do you think?" To me that is wrong, regardless of who's vision it is.

Willie

Quote from: mikesmiph on November 23, 2009, 03:54:52 PM
I for one am reconsidering my thought of joining the TBF for the first time. First off, I have contacted three different clubs to see about joining, and paying all my dues. After one contact with all three of them, I cant get an answer from any of them again. Maybe they dont need new members. Four days ago, I made a post on here volunteering to come to BPS to help wrap, all I asked was how late it was going to be going on. I still havent recieved an answer, so I guess I wont help there. Then, I see all the bickering on here, and it looks to me like there is some questionable tactics going on. When you have an organization like this, you need more than one person making decisions. Dan, I have never met you, and I am certainly not "following you blindly" but What you said about the kids helping wrap gifts was right on the money. I will remain an avid fisherman. I will continue to teach my 5 grandkids all about fishing and conservation. And, I will remain friends with a few people on here. But, I doubt if you will ever see me at a TBF State Fish-off.

Im sorry but from the way you made it sound in your reply to my post I thought you knew when where and what time and you were going to help with it.
I will post a link to the post that you posted on, all the info is there, thank you.

http://www.greatlakesbass.com/forum/index.php?topic=6607.0

WOW  way to much drama for me jeez! You are darned if you do and darned if you don't in tournament bass fishing CRAZY. Are you guy's ever happy? I miss the PHIL SMATHERS day's,  seemed to be way less drama. Show up, pay your $, win,  loose go home..... YA know... The way i see it,  KLBA does it right other than that not so sure anymore. MY 2 cents lol ;D

mikesmiph - Can't tell if you are married from the last post but if you are then you probably have great insight into all of this.  Please forgive any slip ups in decorum, there are some really good issues being worked out (growing pains) and Dan has provided a modern and running version of a TBF meeting which in my mind has shown great promise.

Joining a club is a very personal thing and finding a good fit isn't always easy.  I was lucky, there were friends who were members so it wasn't a hard decision.  What I found out after joining that not so long before that the club had at least 50 members and it ended up splitting.  The core group of folks who cared and some who had been there forever were running a top flight group (of between 20 and 30) and I had nothing but good years with those guys and remain friends with them until this day.  After becoming editor of the Federation magazine I got to meet everyone else from board members to all the other clubs.  What became clear early that not all clubs were the same at all.  There was one that had the big numbers and those guys had been able to thrive, I learned about paper clubs for the first time then there were other clubs that were so active it would make my head spin.  Again, many lifetime friendships formed from that.

I guess I just want to encourage you to not give up on the idea.  Winter is the hardest time on northern bass anglers and come April the "work in progress" will take a back seat to all the good things we set up right now for all three major parts of what we do: Kids, Conservation and the State Championship.

Quote from: mikesmiph on November 23, 2009, 03:54:52 PM
I for one am reconsidering my thought of joining the TBF for the first time. First off, I have contacted three different clubs to see about joining, and paying all my dues. After one contact with all three of them, I cant get an answer from any of them again. Maybe they dont need new members. Four days ago, I made a post on here volunteering to come to BPS to help wrap, all I asked was how late it was going to be going on. I still havent recieved an answer, so I guess I wont help there. Then, I see all the bickering on here, and it looks to me like there is some questionable tactics going on. When you have an organization like this, you need more than one person making decisions. Dan, I have never met you, and I am certainly not "following you blindly" but What you said about the kids helping wrap gifts was right on the money. I will remain an avid fisherman. I will continue to teach my 5 grandkids all about fishing and conservation. And, I will remain friends with a few people on here. But, I doubt if you will ever see me at a TBF State Fish-off.

PM sent....

Quote from: jerkin on November 23, 2009, 07:47:24 PM
WOW  way to much drama for me jeez! You are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't in tournament bass fishing CRAZY. Are you guy's ever happy? I miss the PHIL SMATHERS day's,  seemed to be way less drama. Show up, pay your $, win,  loose go home..... YA know... The way i see it,  KLBA does it right other than that not so sure anymore. MY 2 cents lol ;D

TBF is not a "Tournament Series"...TBF is designed for clubs to have their own internal tournaments and send their qualifiers to a State fish off...TBF is suppose to be a "Vehicle" for growing participation through a club atmosphere and to help facilitate clubs with Conservation and youth Activities...

Right now TBF is acting as one big Club....In my opinion that isn't the way it was designed......

Quote from: mikesmiph on November 23, 2009, 03:54:52 PM
I for one am reconsidering my thought of joining the TBF for the first time. First off, I have contacted three different clubs to see about joining, and paying all my dues. After one contact with all three of them, I cant get an answer from any of them again. Maybe they dont need new members. Four days ago, I made a post on here volunteering to come to BPS to help wrap, all I asked was how late it was going to be going on. I still havent recieved an answer, so I guess I wont help there. Then, I see all the bickering on here, and it looks to me like there is some questionable tactics going on. When you have an organization like this, you need more than one person making decisions. Dan, I have never met you, and I am certainly not "following you blindly" but What you said about the kids helping wrap gifts was right on the money. I will remain an avid fisherman. I will continue to teach my 5 grandkids all about fishing and conservation. And, I will remain friends with a few people on here. But, I doubt if you will ever see me at a TBF State Fish-off.

mikesmiph - I thought you were going to attend the Oakland County Bass meeting held recently? Let me know who you are trying to contact and I'm sure I can smooth it out.

I am trying to make sure things are done in a fair manner that follows the bylaws. I'm asking questions and stating my opinions. I still plan on having my own club for persons who are unable to make a bunch of meetings, fish additional club events or can't find a local club in their area. A couple persons have renewed so far with one new one calling me tonight.

It has tried to head in the right direction with more activity-based clubs signing up. My club was originally half the membership just to get us started and make sure people who wanted to be a part of the 'new' (actually original) federation could join. With a high around 50 members leaking off down to 16 or so members this year. Some of those members started similar clubs, but others joined activities-based clubs.

Those clubs should end up being the majority and core, but frankly, the whole federation idea in Michigan has been a challenge since before the split even occurred. The BASS federation had been over 1,000 members and then dropped by hundreds.

The thing I always first say to bass anglers who ask 'why bother' is to be counted. We probably would not have the statewide early bass season without the organizational side a federation provides. There have been other issues and there will be more in the future. I would like to see even 5% of the states 400,000 bass anglers belong. We could be proactive instead of reactive with those kinds of numbers! We would all be better off if that could become the initial focus and purpose for belonging.

That is my hope based on all my years of speaking at public meetings, hearings and sit-downs with government and DNR officials trying to convince them we had the numbers the should listen to. If we do a better job of covering the important and critical issues, the fishing will always be there. It is not impossible. Just challenging.

Quote from: djkimmel on November 23, 2009, 11:27:47 PM
The thing I always first say to bass anglers who ask 'why bother' is to be counted. We probably would not have the statewide early bass season without the organizational side a federation provides. There have been other issues and there will be more in the future. I would like to see even 5% of the states 400,000 bass anglers belong. We could be proactive instead of reactive with those kinds of numbers! We would all be better off if that could become the initial focus and purpose for belonging.

Epecially with this recent oversight by the comission appointed to protect the Great Lakes and other waterways, accidentally lumping recreational anglers in with commercial fishing.

Quote from: motocross269 on November 23, 2009, 08:24:54 PM

Quote from: jerkin on November 23, 2009, 07:47:24 PM
WOW  way to much drama for me jeez! You are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't in tournament bass fishing CRAZY. Are you guy's ever happy? I miss the PHIL SMATHERS day's,  seemed to be way less drama. Show up, pay your $, win,  loose go home..... YA know... The way i see it,  KLBA does it right other than that not so sure anymore. MY 2 cents lol ;D

TBF is not a "Tournament Series"...TBF is designed for clubs to have their own internal tournaments and send their qualifiers to a State fish off...TBF is suppose to be a "Vehicle" for growing participation through a club atmosphere and to help facilitate clubs with Conservation and youth Activities...

Right now TBF is acting as one big Club....In my opinion that isn't the way it was designed......

OK? IT'S ALL CLEAR NOW THANX!

Thanks moto...great insight!

Very enlightening thread. Alot to think about. My hats off to all those that are taking the time to make a difference.

Wow things never change, any time someone tries something out of the box it gets scrutinized. I think Jeff Cox and the board are trying to do something new to get membership for the TBF. Since the TBF was founded here after the split the membership has done nothing but drop and its not to hard to see why with all the bickering. Dan when Dennis didn't get reelected did you stay around to help the new President, no you got mad and resigned. Does this help the TBF? I have great respect for Dennis Beltz but membership wasn't growing then either the TBF needed a change. Due to these economic times we as a Federation need to look at different ways to make the membership grow and this is what our current board is trying to do, is it going to work, who knows but doing things the same wasn't so why not try something out of the box.
You might want to say that I'm only in the TBF for the Tournament fishing and you would be right, I have been lucky enough to make a lot of money fishing TBF Events. The organization will not survive without the State Championship, Conservation or the youth its the whole package that makes it work.
Dennis and Dan have done a great deal for this organization and the previous one, but things change. Back when it was the MBCF there were over 900 members and the most we could get to a State Championship then was 300 members, even though only 1/3 fished the State Championship it was important to them all.
All I can say is support the changes whether you like them or not for the first year and if it doesn't work then you can say I told you so.
The more youths we get into fishing the more future boat buyers there will be. ;D       

It's ridiculous to think that doing dumb things is going to change the Federation in a positive way.  Im not going to re-state all of the previous discussion here as I'm tired of it.  The State Championship is a worthwhile endeavour, and a really fun tournament, but I it should fund itself (with sponsors assistance, as well, but not public fund-raisers). I think you can afford it.

Mark, you are right about one thing though, getting kids involved now will lead to boats sold in the future. The TBF needs to think about how to get more kids involved.  One way might be to expose an entire school to the positive aspects of fishing and tournament fishing.  Many kids do not ever get the chance to go fishing.  That's a shame.  Simply getting a chance to experience fishing should boost the number of anglers in the future. 

Mark, I don't recall you ever asking me why I resigned so it seems imprudent for you to assume you know why I resigned. I don't recall you even being there when all these things occurred so you must be getting your one-sided information from Jeff or one of his guys. I would like to share one thing with you now since you weren't there. The people who voted for Dennis for one more year so Jeff could get some experience first (since he has never done this before) were myself, Dennis Beltz, Dave Reault and Brian Belevender. That is the part of the board that did 95% of the work that actually got done and includes 3 times the experience in years compared the other board members. I'm very confident in their judgment since they had a lot to do with TBF of Michigan even existing.

Since you have felt the need to poke at me in public, allow me to retort. Since you were not involved and have not asked any questions of me, it is apparent you are making up your mind from less than half the story.

I happen to know all sides and everything that is going on since I have been involved on the inside and have had a number of discussions with Jeff. I always hope someone in your position who could actually be a leader will think things through and maybe find out all parts of a situation before making decisions based on incomplete information. That is how bad decisions are made at times. I thought you had more respect for me than that. I appear to have been wrong. It is a free country and you can do and think as you wish.

That goes both ways though. I don't recall it ever being an issue with people asking questions or even disagreeing in the past. Anytime I see someone making pronouncements without involving others first, and then trying to make it appear that anyone who asks questions or disagrees has problems, I tend to be twice as alert considering outside of a totalitarian government, that is not how things work in the democratic process. It is convenient for anyone who just wants free reign with no oversight or accountability however.

As you admit, it sounds like some of the changes appeal to you personally. Good for you. That doesn't mean everyone else will feel the same appeal. If you did not like the decisions that were made, I imagine you would be talking to other people and letting them know it also. As we both know you do at times. I don't recall ever calling you and telling you that you could not state your opinions. Why would that be okay for you, but not okay for me? Please explain the difference. I definitely have not made public claims about you like you have about me. If I want to know why you did something, I would call you and ask you rather than make something up someone else told me.

I'm hearing from more and more members who are concerned about the way things have been done, unilaterally by an inexperienced person, and concerned that some of the decisions do not appear to be thought through as they expect.

Questions, debate and even disagreement are fine in a democratic process. Everyone knows that who lives in this country. Considering that I have more experiences that the 5 board members who are presently in the majority put together, and that I have met and spoke before and with persons all the way up to US Congressman, why would Jeff, or you, or anyone else think you can pressure me into silence? Maybe I actually know what I'm talking about? That would be interesting. What is truly interesting is that others have stated similar and additional comments and concerns on their own. Do they need to be quiet too and not have an opinion or say in their organization? Are you saying that only people who agree with everything Jeff does should be a member?

That would be bad because many of the members who do the good things would be gone. Yikes. Then it would just be another tournament circuit. Which is not what a federation is about.

Luckily, I choose to not tell the entire story publicly because the milk has been already spilt. I leave out many details that I would not leave out if I was the petty person I'm accused of. What is important now, even for someone who just wants to fish, is that myself and others are vigilant and selfless enough to be wary of contradictory decisionmaking and to know that saying TBF is also about youth and conservation doesn't mean anything unless it is backed up with real action. Plenty of discussion here has clarified the questions and issues already for anyone willing to read who hasn't already made up their mind or only wants to fish. It is clear only some members are being considered and listened to at the present by the majority in power but many others are not. Anyone who pays attention can recognize that it isn't me making these questions come about. It is the actions and communications of Jeff and the board doing that. You guys are missing the mark completely because this isn't about me and Jeff. It is about what a lot of members think and will decide who have not been considered or listened to.

You're shooting in the wrong direction.

BTW, TBF of Michigan started out with less than 50 members before going up to over 230. Then membership went back down last year again, so your claim about membership is not accurate. Dennis and I went to club meeting to try to get them to join. None of the board members who are in the majority right now ever did that. Maybe that is one reason membership went down? Also, some anglers, even anglers who benefited greatly from our activities, were going around complaining about stuff rather than offering to help out. Maybe that is another reason membership went down? If influential anglers go around complaining, some people won't join... isn't that what you are trying to tell me right now? Do you know anyone else guilty of that?

I just read through this whole post again....I didn't really see alot of bickering or fingerpointing from members...I see some people that have legitimate questions and concerns about how decisions were made and the direction TBF may be headed....Some of those questions were answered some not so much...If there is something wrong with a paying involved member trying to get answers to legitimate questions then there is a problem...

I agree. This is an example of the democratic process in action. Funny how sometimes I'm told I should 'have to leave stuff up' and sometimes I'm told I should have to delete stuff. I have always preferred not to add to the negativity and bad things in the world, but in general, if debate is done in an adult manner without getting personal, I'll leave it up.

I only take it personal when someone deigns to assume they know my mind without having ever actually asked me, or even having been involved directly with everything that has occurred this year. Other than that, this is all about what is best for TBF of Michigan. The first thing that would convince me everyone is truly what they claim to be would be to add back the cost of paying the youth membership of $5 per child. It's a small thing that sends the right message.

Of course, once you put yourself in an $8,000 to $10,000 hole - the amount wiped out by taking away the entry fee, it is kind of hard to do much else. We were told the difference would be covered, but I didn't see it reflected in the budget or the checking account statements. You're talking about the entire members dues of over 320 new members or an awful lot of fundraising just for the state team.

Heres where I wish Jeff was still a member of GLBass.com so he could explain becouse he does have a plan and it is a plan that should work.
As Jeff stated at the meeting some of that $8k deficit will be and allready has been partialy replaced by selling donated products like solar bat sun glasses, a Hummingbird 997, a ton of yama lube and evinrude oil and a few other items to TBF members, that money goes 100% to the general fund.
in the past not all the sponsor freebies were sold to TBF members so thats where a portion will come from.

some of the money will need to come from fund raisers just like other successfull TBF states are currentley doing and doing quite well at compared to the original TBF of Mi ways.

I personely dont understand why the youth's shouldnt have to pay a VERY small membership fee.
To be a member of boy scouts for example theres much larger expenses including uniforms, field trips, etc. the $5 that paid for the youth membership was from Cody's winnings that were decided to be used towards youth membership but that money has now been used up.

I could go on but Id rather not since this is not the official web site of TBF of Michigan and this site is being used to defame the new president.
If any of you have any questions or doubt please call President of TBF of Mi Jeff Cox @ 734-429-2580 and he will be happy to answer all of your questions including where the $ is expected to come from.

Now enough about this Im headed out the door to fish Erie  ;D

There have been some truly unfortunate statements made in this thread recently. I can tell you that it has affected my decision process. I was on the fence anyway. Not anymore.

Well, I'm in.  And so it my 18 year old partner.  Who buy the way can't WAIT to own his own boat and sit in the front seat a little more often.

And correct me if I'm wrong... isn't the TBF a group of people who just want to fish and possibly make a bit of money?    The "bickering" I'm reading really should be handled behind the scenes, not on a public forum.  This will only lead to some anglers deciding they don't want to belong.

Can't wait to see who I draw at Muskegon.

I will be fishing TBF next year for one reason it's a great opportunity. I could care less about all the politics and bickering that seems to always be going on in this group. I just don't understand how you guys get so worked up and let these issues cause bad blood between each other.

Quote from: Waterfoul on November 29, 2009, 11:17:05 AM
And correct me if I'm wrong... isn't the TBF a group of people who just want to fish and possibly make a bit of money?    The "bickering" I'm reading really should be handled behind the scenes, not on a public forum.  This will only lead to some anglers deciding they don't want to belong.

As has been mentioned by a number of members, TBF of Michigan is not supposed to just be a tournament circuit. It is not just a group of people who want to fish and make a bit of money. That is a tournament circuit. There are plenty of those. What anglers need, whether they know it or not, is an organization that can make all the other things happen like organized efforts to get youth involved and keep them involved; to watch over the environment and to work for change in an organized fashion. If everyone just fished (sounds great to me too), how would any of those other things get done? Who would do them? Someone else?

Any organization that can't handle some questions and disagreement needs to take a hard look at itself and ask why? One of the purposes of this forum is to let EVERYONE state their opinion. Not just the people who say what you (the rhetorical you here) like to hear or agree with. If ANY idea gets through to people it is that one.

Adult and mature debate can be productive and even lead to improvement. I see a pretty good amount of that going on in this thread. I'm not going to shut it down just because some people don't like it. I'd have to shut down a lot of threads if I did that every time someone doesn't like it.

I prefer positive and fun, but my actions did not start this particular thread and I'm not the only one keeping it going, and other than a little personal stuff coming from some people wanting to stifle opposing views (as someone pointed out - who is following who blindly - good point) it has been pretty mature and many people have had the opportunity to state their opinions and show who they are to everyone else by choice. Usually, when I do stop something like this, I get complaints from some of the same persons. Funny, when they agree with a topic, I can't stop a thread. When they don't agree with a thread I have to stop it. I was taught at a very early age that you can't have things both ways.

As long as people follow the rules, avoid personal attacks and I don't think they are harming my business too much, I try to let it continue. Just by giving TBF their own large section, I have to listen to a number of complaints that I'm am pro TBF and anti BASS. If I make any changes, it will be for business reasons because if I don't keep things going in that area, the site won't be here for anyone to state their opinions on.

Some people can debate and still be friends.

well....one thing is very obvious....we care!
thats a whole lot more than I can say about the average fisherman....hey that makes us above average   ;D.

this is a good post helping us move forward to help preserve our sport and environment in Michigan and we have national backing plus sponsors so the TBF is a win win organization that we ALL need to support.

we are the only ones that will take the time to do it right, sorry Jenny and Obama but I just dont trust you enough to sit back and "just fish".

I know some peaple disagree with the changes, some peaple disagree with them disagreeing, some peaples feelings got hurt by the changes and/or the posts but Im sure we will all come together with the TBF and our friendships.

I think getting a few things out in the open is good, it helps us decide what needs to be done or voted on at the meetings, the meetings go by fast with so many things to discuss so I think posts like this could help us be more organized, positive and progressive at the meetings plus help point out any motions or member requests and Q&A that might need to be observed.

P.S. Im not following blindley, Im just following and hoping everything works out, I had no vote on anything that is happening.
I follow and try to help it grow becouse I think the TBF stands for something that is extrememley important to our future and our childrens future.

p.s.s. I think it would be a good idea for the general members that want to be involved and in the know to attend the meetings.

by the way Erie was on fire today  :-*

Well, if no one is following anyone blindly, we're ahead already. Helping out is good too. Pictures of late November bass are also good...

Ouch!  Just saw your post Mark and gotta say that some things are handled better mano-e-mano.  

One thing that has held this thread together is the way so many GLB members have been able to work through issues with respect.  It seems fairly obvious to me that everyone, and I do mean everyone wants to see growth in the Federation in all aspects: Kids, Conservation and the State Championship.  It follows that the board deserves all the support it can get to achieve those ends and there is no way, no how that anybody in our membership at large won't at the very least agree in principal, or perhaps support them to get the job done.  The key issues revolve more around the manner in which we get there.  

Can a small group force their agenda on the whole and we all win?  Perhaps...  A different approach could be: A member with experience in the federation culture (if you will) might work hard with the presidents and the individual clubs, work within the bylaws and past practices, listen to the people who have worked through these issues before and build a solid consensus.  Then move forward and build on what has made the federation system work for so long while introducing "out of the box" measures that build a bigger box.

I've been fortunate to be close enough to the action concerning federation affairs over the years to know that the 900+ membership wasn't built, nor was it held together by anything but people who had respect for the organization, its members and its purpose.  Never in that time did I see members leap off a cliff in blind faith chasing a single individual either.  There was an orderly progression of votes, discussions, publishing minutes and keeping presidents up-to-date so they can take that back to their clubs.  Since last spring the level of respect toward these values hasn't been at the level to which I have been accustomed to.  

If you haven't been following closely then perhaps you didn't know:

* The 2009 General Meeting minutes from last March have yet to be published, discussed and approved.
* A clear bylaw violation occurred at the last meeting over the objections of two clubs.
* Myself and at least one other president haven't been receiving emails from the TBF.  In my case, I haven't seen anything at all since at least April and this has been discussed openly in the meeting with nearly all board members present.  At that time I asked to be brought up-to-date.

If this was all there was then it really isn't worth mentioning because this is a volunteer outfit and stuff happens.  If the issues are resolved eventually then that's good enough for me.  What appears to be happening though is a steady repetition of the same kinds of errors.  By the time the State Championship rolls around, these errors look like they will be compounded beyond belief and the good being done to increase the membership could be canceled out and we'll be back where we started.  Right now the only way to avoid this is for the membership to speak up.  It really isn't respectful for anyone to say that participating in the federation in an appropriate way by discussing these important issues is an attack on any one individual or called bickering.

In my case, I sent less people to the State Championship last year from my team because there were some substantive questions about how the board handled certain issues.  This year I will send more because the incentives are there but how to keep the new people will depend a lot less on what I think and a lot more on how much they feel a part of something bigger than themselves, something worthwhile.  The next move is on the board to make this a cohesive federation of clubs working toward all the cool things we can achieve together.  Quote: "None of us is as good as all of us."

Now that's what I call service...one phone call later and it looks like the email thing will get rolling for me so now maybe I won't be playing catchup here pretty soon.  Also a substantive talk about other key issues has helped.  I look forward to talking about how things are being accomplished, tracking the results and watching some good things come to pass.  That's way more fun than the alternative.  :)

This thread has been viewed over 1700x's???? And we can only get 12 members of the TBF to help volunteer for a youth and conservation fundraiser at BPS? You should all be ashamed of yourself. Thanks to the guys and gal that helped out!

It sounds like the bottom line in this whole thread is all about the mighty DOLLAR! And who should get it and who should spend it?
Right?  SAD! I HATE MONEY! IT DESTROYS FAMILIES, FRIENDS, AND BUSINESSES. PERIOD!

Let me say a few things:

1. If I pay the $5 dues for all the Jr's. would that make Dan & co. happy???? NO? Brian call me if you think the Jr's. are underfunded.
(Dan, Do you get paid per view with this website? with this thread maybe GLB would like to sponsor the youth dues?) 50x5=$250?

2. I have been lucky enough to make the stateteam 3x's and I have had little funding to help with expenses. So all the talk about the money(dues) going towards the state championship is a joke, and a free ride with the TBF to the northern divisional is only possible with a rich man feeling sorry for the stateteam? NO MONEY IS BEING TAKEN AWAY FROM THE YOUTH AND CONSERVATION EFFORTS. PERIOD!!!

Q. Dan, how much has the TBF of MI raised in the past 4 yrs for the youth and conservation efforts? Please give me a $ amount per yr. so I can make sure we double that amount and shut up the tournament haters.

3. This federation is one package: youth,conservation,& fishing.
yes we have a state championship! yes we have a JR. state championship! yes we help with conservation efforts!

Q. The stateteam has won $19,000+ over the last two yrs.
Dan, Gomez, & Wayne should all that money go back to the stateteam, the stateteam fund, or the TBF general fund?
Good question?
Dan, Gomez, Wayne, & Co. think all monies should be divide into three funds? Just like the TBF of MI is now divided????? NO!
IT IS CALLED A GENERAL FUND!!! Make a budget, raise the $, fund the projects! Its simply if you understand business.

Just getting a few things off my chest. Please respond.

PS I fish because I love the challenge, I volunteer because I want to see this sport grow!

I will always support the TBF, the stateteam, and I will forever fish the state championship because I understand the benefits with a chance to someday "LIVE THE DREAM"....

                        Thanks,

              Jon "don't hate the player, hate the game" Jezierski

Pss Who wants to put the gloves on in the octagon for a TBF fundraiser to fund the stateteam!?! :-\'  oops! the general fund?

If anyone has any questions about the TBF of MI please call me.
I have helped at the shows, I have volunteered at fundraisers, I have paid my dues for the last 4 yrs, I have made the state team 3x's and the Nationals once.

Please give me a call and I might be able to help with all the confusion?

                             Thanks,
                                        Jon Jezierski
                                                         248 835 8730

Mark Modrak,
Please do not post on this site. Its not worth it! It will only lower yourself to my level. Greatness?? Leave all the ?!?!?!?!?!? to us little guys. Save yourself from the negative views? You're a great role model for this sport and we need you at the top! A lot of people look up to you.

                     just my thought,
                                            Jon

Mama always said....if you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all?

I don't have time to reply to most of this but...yes I think the State Championship should have a separate budget.

Cameraguy,
The question was should all the $19,000+ won at the Northern Divisional go to the stateteam, the stateteam fund, or the general fund??? 
According to your plan the stateteam can keep all there monies($19,000), the youth can keep there $1000?, and the conservation can keep there $1000 grant?  "I will wait for Dan to give me some numbers of the last 4 yrs. on the youth and conservation budgets?"

No joke we need a BUDGET for all three? youth, conservation, and fishing! Which I have not seen for the past 4 yrs?

Jon,
Treasury reports were given out and gone over at each members' meeting and board meeting I was at (all of them pretty much) broken down by a number of categories including general fund, youth and sometimes conservation. Budgets were done once per year also.

I think what has been discussed on this thread has been thorough and clear enough for most people so I don't see anything to add at this time considering the above.

Thanks for your input to the discussion. Very helpful.

Welcome to the conversation Jon, it was good to see you at BPS last weekend putting your time in for a great cause, Im TOTALY surprized we didnt have many many more peaple stepping up.

I realy wish we could have had more women and youth's to help soften up the customers rather than a bunch of guys that fish...but hey at least we have a few great generous guys willing to do things for youth and conservation that they would probobly rather not have to deal with and would likeley have had other important things to do if they thought it could happen without them.

In all honesty if we had the youths work every and all fund raisers we would likeley get more donations but that wouldnt be fair to the youth to have them do all the work would it ?.

Im pretty sure the mission and reason for TBF is to get us adults involved and united for the betterment of the sport and family values.

Quote from: cast n blast on November 30, 2009, 01:39:41 PM
Im pretty sure the mission and reason for TBF is to get us adults involved and united for the betterment of the sport and family values.

Yes, that is a common theme a number of people have pointed out as one of the main purposes of a federation. Thanks for pointing it out again. Never hurts to keep reminding people.

                        Thanks,

              Jon "don't hate the player, hate the game" Jezierski


Heyyyyy....I thought you were JJ Sniper  ???   :D

Some of us had to work at their JOB. Sorry I couldnt make this one.

yes, the man of mystery?

mike if you had to work, no problem...no apology needed!


                                jj sniper

Mike....Don't worry about it....I pick 1 or 2 events a year to put my time into...If every member in TBF did that we would be way ahead of the game....No one should expect you to attend every event..If that was the case they would have the same 12 guys showing up at every event.....

I am really not ashamed of anything....I will let my prior record of volunteerism stand on its own......

Jon, I really don't see any "Tournament haters" throwing up the red flag.....I would be willing to bet between the 5 or 6 guys I see here voicing some concerns you will find close to 100 years of combined tournament experience.....I fished my first Operation Bass/Redman tournament in 1988-89...After serving my country for 20 years I am venturing back into the ring but I have followed Federation and tournament fishing during most of those 20 years.....Tournament hater...Not hardly...

I am not so sure that it comes down to where the dollars are going..At least for me anyway....I am more concerned with "Focus and Direction"....I throw so much cash into this tournament fishing what is another 100 bucks here and there..  ;D

I love the State fish off Ideas and they will help the Federation to grow to a point...It is the lack of focus beyond that point that has me concerned.  

Either way I am in and it looks like TBF will have another new club after this weekend..

Glad to hear you are pulling the new club off moto. Wondered how that would work out for you.

You have always been a good helper when I or another board member asked you in the past. Thank you very much. Remember not to take many things personal.

Because there is no way to hear voice inflection or read body language I'd prefer verbally communicating this but I think it would take a while for all us to get onto the same conference call. Please take time to digest this before commenting - it is in no way meant to be negative nor am I calling any individual or group of individuals out.  (Disclaimer - please sign attached authorization before reading :D)

This "bickering" has sadly become common place within the angling community here in Michigan; the overall demeanor we have up here is somewhat discouraging but on the flip side proves that there is a major oppurtunuity for improving Michigan's overall tournament scene.  One thing that I think is being overlooked is the fact that the Tournament Anglers are the engine that drives the entire vehichle known as the TBF - without a solid base of serious anglers there would be no use for "Youth" or "Conservation" efforts because a car with no engine would only be able to go down hill.

What is it going to take someone to say or do over the next year to start to change the way we think in Michigan?  We have one of the biggest bases of tournament anglers in the entire country, in the Northern region there isn't a state that comes close to Michigan as far as tournament participation - one would assume that having the 4th highest tournament participation in the country would correlate to some absolutely ridiculous turnouts at the Michigan TBF State Championship but that's not the case.  Who's fault is this?  Is the DNR?  Is it the Federal Government?  Is it the FLW's or B.A.S.S?

The answer is Me, you, and anyone that considers themselves a competitive tournament angler is at fault because we are the only ones who actually have a true meaningful stake in this game so we are the only ones who can bring about real positive change and growth to the sport.  Tournaments, youth participation, and conservation all fall under improving the sport of bass fishing and to me that's what the TBF is all about.  The great thing is that you can't really optimize any one of those areas by themselves - they are requirements to truly grow the sport over the long term; the arguement of which area is more important or which area should get the most attention is simply a mute point because each area is somewhat dependent on the other.  If I could add a 4th critical focus area to the TBF or any other tournament related organization it would be attitude?  Do we approach what we do and say about our passion in the right mind frame?  I know I don't but I'm definitely trying to because we all have one heck of an oppurtunity here in the Great Lakes and it would be a shame to let it all go to waste because of our opinions, thoughts, and attitudes.

We all fish for the same reasons - because we enjoy it; some like to compete (that's why I fish), some like to want to grow the sport by involving more youth (were else do you get future donaters ;D), some want to conserve our resources (I'm all about that because without water and no fish this post would be a mute point) - I'm pretty sure the majority of us can partially agree with all of those areas so lets move the TBF of Michigan forward because everything else is history.

P.S. - If this doesn't help put into perspective whatsover I do like the suggestion of having some pre-tournament cage fighting or boxing with head-gear; I have access to head-gear and 16oz. gloves if it will help anyone put aside their differences.

P.S.S. - Make sure to re-read the disclaimer at the top of the post if this causes any negative feelings or if you feel single out.

P.S.S.S. - Dan could have the song U.N.I.T.Y by Queen Latifa be background music when we are viewing this thread?  When all else fails go to the subconcious and subliminal!

P.S.S.S.S. - I just like the whole P.S. theme sorry!

Feel free to call me if anyone feels they need a shot of optimism or just wants to tell me I'm wrong and that they don't like me!

Luke A. Winstrom
Return On Investment Outdoors
luke.winstrom@roioutdoors.com
Mobile 616-558-6133

Does the TBF have their own scales and weigh-in equipment yet?

Bryan, don't get everyone started about scales and weigh-in equipment? That's another thread all together?

It would seem to me that should be the first thing that should be purchased!  The ideas like free entry for the fish off and free membership for past presidents are nice ideas, but you can't run before you learn to walk. 

If I didn't know any better, I'd think Obama and his boys were running this show.  Free entitlements for everyone, and we'll figure out how to pay for it later.  And hope we can come up with enough money!

There's that talk about money again?
HOW MUCH IS "ENOUGH MONEY?"

That is the million dollar question? $5,000, $10,000, $20,000?

My goal is 300 anglers at the 2011,  Aug. 29 Lake St. Clair State Championship @ $60per angler?

$18,000 should be a good start to the general fund????

shooting for the stars.......aim high?
                                                    jj sniper

ps $75 for past president will not make or break this federation? Lets be serious now.

our club "ROI State of Michigan" will be joining TBF tommorow,we are mostly joining to fish the state fish-off and a chance to "live the dream"......I have been on 2 recent state teams(BASS) and had a blast!!! but i always thought things were a little backwards with the money,tournament fishing by far makes the federation go round(there's lots of tournaments with no youth and conservation but were's the youth and conservation clubs outside tournaments).
  don't get me wrong i'm all for the youth(i have 3 aewsome fishing girls) but i think alot more youth stuff goes on behind the scenes from club members thats not showcased,for me it doesn't have to be a youth fish-off(or what ever) to show that were doing some youth stuff,I just look around at fellow tournament anglers with there kids(some TBF members,some not) and know that they care and thats what i'm looking for in a federation,i'm also looking for my federation to take WELL care of the state team qualifiers and to go to bat for me when my fishing lifestyle is threatened at a state level.
I do not think there should be a seperate budget it should be the federation fund and the "elected officials" should vote what should be done with that fund.

There are an awful lot of youth and Conservation organizations that don't have tournaments, MUCC probably being one of the largest in this state.....What are their membership numbers???

This isn't an Anti- tournament debate...Here is part of the Mission statement from TBF...

The main focus of The Federation is to work for our members in the areas of youth, conservation and fishing. To join The Federation you must join your local state federation through a club.

Quote from: gr@ssmonkey on December 01, 2009, 01:21:15 AM
 don't get me wrong i'm all for the youth(i have 3 aewsome fishing girls) but i think alot more youth stuff goes on behind the scenes from club members thats not showcased,for me it doesn't have to be a youth fish-off(or what ever) to show that were doing some youth stuff,I just look around at fellow tournament anglers with there kids(some TBF members,some not) and know that they care and thats what i'm looking for in a federation,i'm also looking for my federation to take WELL care of the state team qualifiers and to go to bat for me when my fishing lifestyle is threatened at a state level.

A successful federation will have many more activities going on at a local level. Many often will not hear about it, but it actually is good to change that. Bass tournament anglers can use all the good PR they can get and showing off that we actually do a lot more than just fish some tournaments trying to win a little money is important.

Years ago in the other federation, we would give away youth grants to a fair number of clubs each year because we knew that you do need to take things down to the grassroots level with people who are willing to do that. Part of the requirements to get the small grants was to report back on your activity with pictures for the newsletter.

There were national awards we could try for, the good PR and I liked just sharing ideas between clubs.

BTW, MUCC is the largest state conservation organization in the world! Don't know their latest numbers, but it has been as high as 30,000 and 400+ clubs.

In the past, I have tried to make sure we were members though not everyone has always agreed with me on that. But realistically I will tell you, in Michigan, if you want something major changed in the outdoors, you MUST have MUCC on your side. I have always formed a coalition with them when needed.

Quote from: ROI Outdoors on November 30, 2009, 08:08:05 PM
P.S.S.S. - Dan could have the song U.N.I.T.Y by Queen Latifa be background music when we are viewing this thread?  When all else fails go to the subconcious and subliminal!
Luke A. Winstrom
Return On Investment Outdoors
luke.winstrom@roioutdoors.com
Mobile 616-558-6133

Sorry. Can't do that. Surveys show most Internet users don't like music to popup without warning (gets them in trouble at work ;D). And then there's that whole country verses rock and roll thing...

I thought your post was fine.

Part of my BASS Club's dues go towards an MUCC membership...Money well spent...

Quote from: Mark117 on November 30, 2009, 11:40:49 PM
My goal is 300 anglers at the 2011,  Aug. 29 Lake St. Clair State Championship @ $60per angler?

$18,000 should be a good start to the general fund????

I thought the entry fee for the August 2010 state championship was $50? That is what I have in my notes.

Quote from: motocross269 on December 01, 2009, 02:23:22 AM
Part of my BASS Club's dues go towards an MUCC membership...Money well spent...

That was another thing I tried to do over 10 years ago. Try to get all the local clubs to join also. It's a good idea (I think).

Quote from: djkimmel on December 01, 2009, 02:28:19 AM

Quote from: Mark117 on November 30, 2009, 11:40:49 PM
My goal is 300 anglers at the 2011,  Aug. 29 Lake St. Clair State Championship @ $60per angler?

$18,000 should be a good start to the general fund????

I thought the entry fee for the August 2010 state championship was $50? That is what I have in my notes.

At the meeting the board said that the entry fee for the LSC state fish off would be pending on how much money was raised for the Muskegon free state fish off...Then the flyer that I got said it was 50 bucks...So to be honest I am a little confused on that....I could see over 200 anglers fishing that LSC state fish off with an entry fee of 50 bucks that could raise 10k fairly easily...

Dan, you guys are sharp! Lets make it interesting? $50+$10 big bass?

$2,000 big bass/ $1,000 largemouth big bass?

yes I said 300 anglers! not 100, not 200? Think big!

SOME WILL NOT MAKE THE STATETEAM? BUT EVERYONE CAN GET LUCKY AND CATCH A BIG BASS!

I will put up $60 with a chance to win $2,000?

If you offer good incentives, they will come! PERIOD!

I try to make sure I answer questions accurately when people ask them. I often email or call Jeff or whomever to clarify before I answer questions I get asked publicly or privately.

I believe the entry fee was set at $50 with $25 going towards the state team and $25 going towards a payback for places 14+, every 6 spots plus one, I believe is how Jeff put it. I will check my detailed notes and make sure I have that right at least as of that meeting. I don't recall what was said about big bass for that event. I think just that one spot would be paid, but I will confirm that.

Dan Dan the answer man!!   ;D

Quote from: gr@ssmonkey on December 01, 2009, 01:21:15 AM
our club "ROI State of Michigan" will be joining TBF tommorow,we are mostly joining to fish the state fish-off and a chance to "live the dream"......I have been on 2 recent state teams(BASS) and had a blast!!! but i always thought things were a little backwards with the money,tournament fishing by far makes the federation go round(there's lots of tournaments with no youth and conservation but were's the youth and conservation clubs outside tournaments).
  don't get me wrong i'm all for the youth(i have 3 aewsome fishing girls) but i think alot more youth stuff goes on behind the scenes from club members thats not showcased,for me it doesn't have to be a youth fish-off(or what ever) to show that were doing some youth stuff,I just look around at fellow tournament anglers with there kids(some TBF members,some not) and know that they care and thats what i'm looking for in a federation,i'm also looking for my federation to take WELL care of the state team qualifiers and to go to bat for me when my fishing lifestyle is threatened at a state level.
I do not think there should be a seperate budget it should be the federation fund and the "elected officials" should vote what should be done with that fund.

Before I comment on some of the things posted since my last post, I would like to put this question out there...

Why do you (anybody who wishes to reply) think that FLW Outdoors is willing to be a partner of TBF, Inc? 

Before I comment on some of the things posted since my last post, I would like to put this question out there...

Why do you (anybody who wishes to reply) think that FLW Outdoors is willing to be a partner of TBF, Inc? 


[/quote]

A quote from a recent article:

Growing fishing participation is a long-established goal of FLW Outdoors.

"FLW Outdoors' goal is to provide fishing opportunities for anglers from coast to coast," said FLW Outdoors President and CEO Charlie Evans. "We are working with our partners at TBF to do just that. We feel that fishing, particularly fishing with the TBF and FLW Outdoors, can change lives. Just ask TBF National Champion Brian Travis who will be 'Living the Dream' next season on the Walmart FLW Tour. Plus, everyone has a chance to change their life by playing Fantasy Fishing, just as Michael Thompson did last year by winning $1 million playing Fantasy Fishing."

Another good indication as to the answer of your question could be found by viewing the following article:

http://tbf.flwoutdoors.com/article.cfm?id=150499

I would have to say that the direct answer to your question would be because the TBF helps grow participation.  This partnership mutually benefits FISHING - and as the article said it isn't all about the bottom line, it's about fishing.  What is the right answer to your question?  Is it about something else? 

Work 16 hours, sleep 14 hours, fix starter on car and some other things 5 hours, commute 5 hours, relax a little then find out the world of GLB has passed me by in that time.  Sorry to not have responded sooner Jon.

Love the bullet points in your Nov. 30th post!

1. Capital letters destroy polite posting
2. Does the rich guy have any extra?...trying to put together the mortgage payment right now.
3. Assumptions make for great drama

I hope you're feeling better now.  Let's face the challenge together.

Welcome to the world of volunteerism.  There are almost always a key group of folks who bring it all together so don't be so down about the numbers, enjoy the time you have with the people who are making a difference.  You'll find that some of those folks might not make it the next time but there will be some others who couldn't be there before who will fill in next time.  It's all good and things can improve as the TBF grows.

You might be surprised to know that there isn't much on this thread that has to do with the money.  In fact, to a fault there probably isn't anything on the thread either about individuals getting funds for themselves.  That's not insignificant.  I think you might have the first post that brings something like that into the conversation and that's fair enough, we're just talking here...  The entire focus seems to be on how funds are allocated and the methodology.  That seems fair enough too.  I can truly appreciate that you're just getting started becoming engaged in the Federation because I've been there.  It took some time to get the whole picture and find out how an organization like this operates and why.  And don't worry about the TBF being divided, rest assured the key group of people are working hard at building new relationships and fresh lines of communication.  There is a lot to be appreciated about the process we're in right now.

There must be some confusion about the general fund issue too and somehow it sounds like you believe that I think (the "& Co." thing was really cool by the way) there should be three funds.  For the most part, the board makes decisions on how funds are allocated but there are probably some significant issues concerning past practices and such.  If the board fully discloses (as far as I know this is happening and any member can attend, but not participate in, a board meeting) how that is being done then the president of each club can decide for themselves if they support that.  Part of that plays out in debate at the general meeting, part of it happens as board members enlist the support of members like Jeff has by setting up committees for certain issues, some of it gets adjusted when board member terms come up for a vote and possibly, in rare cases a board member can be removed for "just cause" by a 2/3 vote of the board itself.  This process has proven itself to be very stable over a long period of time and if the board wants to make three different accounts or have one general fund depends on the board seeing the value in either approach.  I can tell you that the traditional way of handling this has been to have a single general fund and disburse the monies via a published budget and that has worked well.  To have three separate accounts creates unnecessary expenses.  Sometimes a separate account is called for to comply with tax regulations having to do with our status as a non-profit.

Keep in mind that there has been a big shift in policy lately which can potentially solve some issues but inevitably brings up other issues.  I think what you are seeing as a problem might have more to do with "cause and effect" than anything else.  It really is incumbent on the people who are driving the policy to implement it.  That's the "cause" part of the equation.  A really, really, really, really good idea can quickly become a liability if it isn't handled properly.  Knowing how to do this well takes years of work through volunteering in the organization, serving on club boards, helping out at events (like you did), serving on the board in a non-executive capacity then serving in an executive capacity in a support function like secretary then ultimately winning the confidence of the membership to have the support in such a way that the board makes its top executive pick because that person is clearly the most qualified to facilitate the core philosophy of the Federation and serve the membership.  Anything short of this type of selection process is going to produce a situation where two steps will be taken forward then one backward and so on.  If you are familiar with stocks then you might compare it to a bear market.  At this very point in time there are so many issues reflecting this that it is impossible to keep score.  This too shall pass.

So all I can do is encourage you to go with the flow and enjoy the ride.  Treat each member with respect, value their thoughts and opinions, continue to do all those good things you do and realize the things that go bump in the night are known about and seen by the key people building the TBF for years to come.

BTW - Sorry MG but I didn't even know you were on the GLB forum until 117 mentioned it.  I'll feel real dumb if your screen name is something so simple that I should have guessed it.

Again, don't have a lot of time here, but...

ROI I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my question.  Your response is good, however, usually articles taken pretty much from press releases don't have a lot of substance.  One has to dig deeper than the happy face thrust into the public eye by such a release.  I do think that the link you posted has a little nugget in the form of a quote by Mr. Evans that might be a key to the whole thing. 

I would like to hear from others, as well, regarding the same question.

Why do you (anybody who wishes to reply) think that FLW Outdoors is willing to be a partner of TBF, Inc?  

   

ROI - About your 11/30 post

Love that forward looking spirit you have because you help those around you to stay focused on the ultimate goals we share.

I think the part you mentioned about the "angling community" can apply across the board to society in general.  It is just showing up at our doorstep so for the future of our sport we'd better pull together and see the distraction for what it is.  If a new angler were to read the entire thread for the first time I think a common theme would emerge for them, and it would be a good one.  True "bickering" would take a different form I think.  It would be more personal and less issue oriented so sure, there were moments the line was walked but it takes two to tango and I'd like to believe it wasn't crossed.  If you've seen a less disciplined forum outside of GLB then you probably have a good frame of reference for what I'm talking about.

Hopefully what we have here is an advanced form of the optimization you spoke of.  In this case, the serious angler just might be the one who hangs in there and keeps contributing to the thread all the while learning and growing stronger for the effort.  All-in-all I view most of this as talking past each other and the operative word is talking.  It could be just me but I've seen what only can be described as a tipping point in this discussion and with the exception of a few more (perhaps a lot more) speed bumps, the groundwork is laid for robust growth if we have the character to sustain it.

Ok... lets go fishing.  Is it time to go fishing yet?  I want to go fishing!!  I'd like to see how I handle fishing from the backseat of my own boat!  LOL

camaraguy...? ???

Quote from: gr@ssmonkey on December 04, 2009, 10:08:34 AM
camaraguy...? ???

Yeah, what gives?  I know... you're just one of those guys who doesn't believe ANYTHING he reads.  Dismisses it all as 3rd party rants, mis-quotes, and genera hearsay.  Well, that's too bad as Luke's answer was taken directly from the directors of TBF and FLW... I know... I was looking over his shoulder when he looked up the information.

I think if you really need to satisfy your pesimistic mind you need to talk to the directors YOURSELF.  Do your own research.  Make up your own mind.  And then quit being the naysayer and disbeliever you make yourself appear to be.

Now.... let's go fishing!!!  darn snow.  >:(

Mike

Looks to me like he was just asking members why THEY think FLW Outdoors would want to partner with TBF. There could be many possible reasons why it would be attractive to FLW Outdoors. I don't see why asking that should be taken as a negative. I don't see where he said he doesn't believe the information posted. Looks to me like he is just asking about more substance. More specifics. Other peoples' opinions and thoughts. Nothing negative about that either.

There's nothing wrong with discussion about things like that. We might all learn something. Well anyone interested in those kinds of things might. Anyone not interested isn't being forced to read about it. As usual. That's why there are so many available topics on the forums.

Quote from: cameraguy on December 02, 2009, 09:00:32 PM
Again, don't have a lot of time here, but...

ROI I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my question.  Your response is good, however, usually articles taken pretty much from press releases don't have a lot of substance.  One has to dig deeper than the happy face thrust into the public eye by such a release.   I do think that the link you posted has a little nugget in the form of a quote by Mr. Evans that might be a key to the whole thing. 

I would like to hear from others, as well, regarding the same question.

Why do you (anybody who wishes to reply) think that FLW Outdoors is willing to be a partner of TBF, Inc?  

   

Sorry Dan, but this post seems pretty negative to me.  How could anyone not directly involved in the TBF or FLW even venture an educated answer to camera guys question?  99% of the people on this site are NOT directly involved with either organization.  That means those of us who fall into that 99% HAVE to go by what we are told by those who are involved.

ANYTHING else is a guess. ROI gave the ONLY educated answer anyone from outside the organizations could possibly give.  It was based on the facts as they are presented to the general angler population.

If I had to GUESS, I would have to say that FLW probably makes money off of TBF. Seems to be the biggest reason anymore for these kinds of partnerships. Wish we could go back to the days when we were partners with someone because we liked them. Too much of this world revolves around money.

I thought they (FLW) did it just to tick BASS off. ;D

Quote from: mikesmiph on December 04, 2009, 04:08:10 PM
If I had to GUESS, I would have to say that FLW probably makes money off of TBF. Seems to be the biggest reason anymore for these kinds of partnerships. Wish we could go back to the days when we were partners with someone because we liked them. Too much of this world revolves around money.

I would have to agree with you Mike but only to a point, FLW is a business for profit but there is more to it for FLW than just simple profit IMO.
Bringing new grass root anglers into organizations and combined groups not only helps FLW financialy, it helps bring a louder and more informed responsible voice to the table in the event that another organization like peta tries to take our rights away.

I also believe FLW backs TBF for conservation reasons that help improve and maintain our fishing resources so their is ecologically a fishing future.
lastley I believe FLW backs TBF to help bring in more youth anglers, in the long run its quite a smart plan, it helps strengthen our numbers and voice and sell more boats.

Does it come back to the all mighty $....well Im sure thats part of it but Im sure peaple like Forest Wood, Charlie Evans and their partners and sponsors care about the future for their own children and grand children just like we do.

When I pay my FLW and TBF fees I dont do it just to go fish a tournament, I do it to help keep an organization in tact to be a voice and help protect something I love, If someones getting paid and making a profit at the end of the line I dont care one little bit.

Ive been paying B.A.S.S. dues for over 30 years and have never fished a B.A.S.S. tournament, I pay my dues to help the sport.
Im sure some of my my money has gone to some rich representitive living in a fat house....but he has the financial backing, knowledge and connections to fly to washington or wherever and be heard if needed and that alone makes it worth my $.

Wow. Excellent post Skip. I am going to join as many organizations as I can to help make fishing better for future generations. I will do all in my power to help. I have 5 grandkids, and I fish with all of them. Their fishing future means the world to me. Thanks for helping to clear this sometimes muddled mind.

Despite some doubt in cameraguy's motives or meaning - anyone who doubts they have something to add to this question sells themselves short - I think mikesmiph and particularly cast n blast are saying exactly the kind of things cameraguy was wondering about when he simply asked for your opinions. I take it that he wanted to know your opinions.

He wasn't asking someone to come forward necessarily and say, "I know exactly why they did it." We can all learn things from each other. I know I learned some things from recent posts. Thanks for participating.

As far as Josh... (;D) well, I can't say if that plays anything in this but we all recognize the competition between the two tournament pillars, and I prefer to think, and hope, they both recognize that we are valuable commodities for many (good) reasons.

Most lobbying organizations have to make money to stay in the forefront.....NRA, VFW, AARP, etc etc...Without good funding battles are tough to win.....

I have no problem with a tournament organization making a profit...Just like any other not so small business, if they don't profit what is the incentive to stay in business....JMHO....

I really believe that FLW is trying to parallel BASS with the Federation to a point....That is fine though, I am glad that I have 2 large tournament organizations to be a part of and have a ton of opportunities to fish in this state(That doesn't even take into account NBAA etc)...I have started puting everthing on a calendar and it is filling up pretty fast.....I wish I was rich with both time and money so I could take better advantage of some of the opportunities...

I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of crap for saying this but here goes; FLW and BASS are for profit business' and the main reason they support federations is they use membership numbers to negotiate deals with their sponsors for their own profits. In the case of FLW they also want to sell Genmar boats.  ESPN is a media company and their job is selling advertising.  I don't know how much either company really cares about the sport of bass fishing per se.  Tournament bass fishermen spend big money on our toys and they want a piece of it.  Even on the state level greed within the federations have made anglers to question agendas of federation board members.  Prior to the federation split, a majority of federation resources (money and sponsorship gratuities) were funneled to the elite minority of federation members that resided on the board and/or fished the classic series tournament circuit.  The people in charge at the time ignored the majority of federation members that didn't fish the classic series either because they didn't have the finances to do so or didn't feel they could compete at that level. 
I don't mean to imply everyone involved in the federations is greedy, there are some very well meaning selfless people that give a lot of themselves to try to make federations positive organizations for everyone...guys like Dan and Paul Wagner (and I'm sure a few others) do things for the greater good of the fishermen in the federations and of the state.
Having said all this, the fact of the matter is most federation members aren't involved in conservation projects, are not involved in youth programs, and don't participate in federation fund raising projects.
I'm in a club (in the other federation) where we have monthly meetings, have a yearly fund raiser in which everyone participates, have a youth program, and fish tournaments to determine who our club sponsors into the state fish-off.  What we get from being federation members is; liability insurance that may or may not be worth the paper it's printed on, and a state fish-off that allows us to fish the next level.  Personally my club means a lot to me; I have learned a tremendous amount about fishing, I've made some very close friends, and I've learned what I like and don't like about tournament bass fishing.  I have gotten to the point were I don't care much about fish-offs or moving to the next level.  If my club decided to go to TBF, stay with BFN, or not be affiliated with either federation that's fine with me, the club is far bigger than either federation in my eyes.
My point of all this is; if either federation wants members (customers) they need to offer a product that appeals to a majority of fishermen in the state.  I fully appreciate that there is no way to please everyone all the time and determining what "fair" to the general membership can be difficult.  IMO the TBF has been making a big mistake not purchasing scales and untying its hands from the BFL.  Whether statistics show a majority of members participate in the fish-off or not the fish-offs are the most important functions the federations put on in the eyes of a majority of members.  I fished the first TBF fish-off and it was very well conducted and the BFL team did a great job at the weigh-in.  The problem is for the last several years the TBF has held their fish-off at the same lake(s) one day after the BFL during the spawning season.  These fish-offs have very limited appeal to anglers not participating in the BFL the day before.  The TBF needs to move around the state with their fish-off if they want to grow.
Also disturbing, at least to me is; if I am reading this correctly, the TBF president is implementing major rule changes (some of which will directly benefit him in the future) without bringing them to the presidents for a vote.  "Thinking outside the box" is great if the thinking is valid and responsible.  Aligning with someone that does not treat their authority properly is not something I care to do.  From a personal stand-point if my club did want to move to TBF I would vote against it.
Discussions like this do have positive impact on the way things are run even though some get upset initially.

   

Excellent post Mr. Nolan.

Oh and welcome to GLBass.com!

Nice post Mike, you'll get no crap from me.

I especially agree with the last paragraph, which is the same point I made in my earlier posts. Kind of like the"taxation without representation" thing we had about 250 years ago or so in this country.

Seems to me that most of you who are "serious tournament bass fisherman" don't really care about what the "average bass fisherman' thinks about how the TBF is run.

Just because I don't pursue tournament opportunities like you do doesn't mean I am any less passionate about bass fishing or fishing in general. It doesn't mean I care less about conservation or youth programs. That doesn't make me a tournament hater either, as some have stated. What it does is make me a part of the majority of bass fisherman in this state. If the TBF chooses to ignore that fact it will never be the organization it could be.

After much thought I will not be joining Michigan TBF or FLW Outdoors this year. There are other organizations out there that could put my $75.00 to better use right now.

I hold no ill will towards the Michigan TBF or any of it's members. I may very well be a member again in the future.

Here's to a short winter and an early spring for us all!

Willie

Mr. Mike...Thanks for bringing your perspective along for the ride.

Those "positive organization(s)" guys you mentioned and those like them will just keep marching on regardless of what happens from year-to-year.  In my mind those are the people who deserve the greatest respect and support possible because they've shown the same toward the angling community.

The relationship between business (even big business) and anglers will probably always be weighed for its direct and indirect impact on the value of the sport.  It's inexorably symbiotic so in order for both to thrive, both need to negotiate the best possible terms that enable a strong positive presence in society while conserving the resource for the future.  Outside of this ideal there are anomalies that are easy to peg as defining moments or actions and in their own right they are, but over the long haul their influence while negative, gives way to the wide appeal and pure quality of the fishing experience.  This too marches on like your intrepid ambassadors and ultimately define the sport in its highest form.  Having that embedded into the whole of the conversation while treating the oddities and sideshows with less respect is the discussion that interests me the most.

In that respect I'll be looking for more of your posts and look forward to hearing about your activities along the way.

I'm completely behind the TBF Inc. - FLW Outdoors partnership as the best match. I believe having our federation owned by ourselves is the best way to go to benefit us anglers the most in the long run.

I have always supported partnerships such as trying to get clubs and the federation to belong to MUCC in the past. Partnerships are important for getting many meaningful things accomplished... like changing a bass season.

The best partnerships are where each party still controls their own destiny while providing mutual benefit to and for each other. That is what I believe we have with TBF and FLW.

Regardless of what I think makes the best partnership, I still want to see all outdoors persons working together in whatever organized capacity will work, and support all efforts to do so regardless of perceptions.

I do not ever want to see the days again where one person speaking for the anglers and outdoors people at a public meeting is completely outnumbered by all the other interests who not only do not share our interests, but are often opposed. That is very depressing and lonely.

I have seen in recent years the MUCC not had the best interest of tournament anglers in mind with some of there proposals that they have tried to push through.

Maybe we should start another thread for some examples but... that doesn't change, in fact, it makes the case for being a member even stronger. MUCC is the largest state conservation organization in the world. Often, if you want something passed through the MDNR/legislature in Michigan (like the bass season), you need MUCC on your side.

Very hard to affect their policy from the outside, but you can change their policy from the inside. I spent a number of  years as the youngest person (:D) on their board of directors and active on the fisheries committee for that very reason.

They are a diverse group like this country. Many opinions and ideas, but an acceptable consensus can be reached with some work and compromise. That is how many important things get done in our system of government and practices.

As much as realistically possible, I try to be a member and help make things better rather than sit on the outside unable to make a difference. I've had to cut back quite a bit for a number of reasons so I understand that as well as the next person.

A person who I have great respect for contacted me privately through an email and suggested my reply treated Jeff Cox unfairly.  I did not intend on targeting Jeff Cox and I apologize to any that took my comments as a slam towards him personally.  I don't know Jeff Cox and I don't have anything against him personally.  I was commenting on what I've have read in this thread and what I deem as potentially hurting the TBF.  Let me rephrase my comments regarding Jeff.  I don't believe it is in the best interest of the TBF to give the perception to members or would-be members that any one person is making rules for the federation without consulting the presidents.  This goes for Jeff Cox, Paul Sacks, or whoever is in that position.  I also believe it in the best interests of the TBF to purchase a set of scales and a trailer so they can hold fish-offs where it is most advantageous for the bulk of their members.  I personally feel this would be better for the TBF in the long run than would an "entry-fee free" state fish-off.  An entry-fee free fish off will certainly attract "paper" members on a temporary basis but the TBF should IMO be more concerned with being the best run federation so members join and stay longer than one year.  I would also urge the TBF to assemble a competent tournament staff of its own.  The fish-off in either federation is a very important event for a great many anglers.  Well run efficient fish-offs could certainly draw some clubs from the other federation to join the TBF and stay!  The last BFN fish-off I participated in was so poorly run I will not fish another BFN fish-off until I convinced there has been a major overhaul in procedure.   This issue alone could draw my vote for my club to join the TBF.
And I agree with Dan about MUCC.  Issues that need political pressure need numbers and organization and alignment with MUCC would be almost the only way one of "our" issues would have enough impact to sway legislators.  Federation numbers alone aren't enough to influence politicians of the state to act.

Well Mike, since the tourney(s) haven't been conducted yet I think it's too soon to say they WILL be run poorly.  Since our TBF club is fairly local to the Muskegon Lake area I know for sure that several of our members WILL be helping out in whatever capacity we can for the event held there.  Several of our member have been running local events for many years and have a lot of experience managing boats/people/fish.  I am sure this will be a great event and I am very much looking forward to it.  

One nice thing about the Fishermans Landing ramp is the pavillion adjacent to the ramp.  No wind, roof over your head for rain/hot sun protection, nice picnic tables, and a very short distance to the water for releasing fish.  I think it's one of the premier tourney locations on the west side.

Also, if you don't mind me asking Mike, how are you involved with the TBF, FLW, BFL, etc...  It seems you have a lot of information and ideas.  Are you somehow involved?  Pardon my ignorance on this please, but I do not know who you are and I'm sure I'm not alone.

Mike
Store Manager, West Marine Grand Rapids.

I think Mike Nolan is saying similar things to what I had been trying to say or mean. It's easy to construe comments many different ways but in the end what is important is for members to be involved and part of the solution, directly, or by providing clear feedback and input to the boards.

Waterfoul, glad you are enthusiastic about the event AND particularly glad that you are offering to help make things the best they can be. The more involved members are, the better the federation(s) can be. I was very glad to see the good turnout at the last meeting. It is another step in the right direction. There have been a number of such steps lately.

Waterfoul; you might want to re-read my reply because you are seeing something that is not written.  Nowhere did I say the TBF fish-off was "going" to be run poorly.  As I assume you know the TBF has been having the BFL crew conduct their weigh-ins and they were done very well.  From what I understand the BFL will no longer be conducting the TBF fish-off weigh-ins so it is up the TBF to either put a crew together or hire the job out (I believe Chip Harrison is going to run your weigh-in at Muskegon).  The BFN has been conducting their own weigh-ins with their own crew and doing a terrible job of it IMO.  Despite the lowest turn-out ever at this year's St. Clair fish-off (64 boats I believe), some anglers waited an hour and forty-five minutes to weigh in the first day and then after the last angler weighed in it took them approximately another hour and a half to do the pairings for the second day.  I'm sure several people other than myself swore they would never attend another BFN fish-off.  My suggestion to the TBF is not to make the same mistakes the BFN did once they start conducting their own weigh-ins.

And excuse my ignorance but I've never heard of you either.  I guess the difference is being a small scale angler from the East side of the state, I wouldn't expect to know a small scale angler from the West side of the state.  Even though I haven't heard of you I don't assume you wouldn't possibly have a valid opinion or an idea that might help attract members to the TBF.

I don't think either one of you meant for things to sound the way they might be taken guys. Please remember it can be easy to read into things that honestly were not meant. I know I get that a lot :)

I used to run tournaments a long time ago and have been involved in the various federation tournaments in both organizations at times. It is not what I consider a 'fun' job. Like any leadership position, it is challenging to find the right volunteer (or low paid help) to run the event well.

Quote from: djkimmel on December 08, 2009, 08:40:01 PM
I don't think either one of you meant for things to sound the way they might be taken guys. Please remember it can be easy to read into things that honestly were not meant. I know I get that a lot :)

I used to run tournaments a long time ago and have been involved in the various federation tournaments in both organizations at times. It is not what I consider a 'fun' job. Like any leadership position, it is challenging to find the right volunteer (or low paid help) to run the event well.

Was simply asking who you are Mike.  Your posts make it sound like you are somehow involved directly with one of the organizations.  No animosity should be read into anything I posted earlier.

I'm just tired of hearing people (not you Mike, but many others) saying "you can't do that, it will never work" or "that won't work over here."   Some on our TBF team have other aspirations here in the BEST bass fishing state north of Texas/Florida.  We are trying to start something NEW and DIFFERENT over here (that in the grand scheme of things IS involved with FLW/TBF) and we have a few people (who think they carry weight with other anglers) saying what we are trying to establish won't work.  How could a 100+% payback tournament series WITH corporate sponsorship NOT attract anglers?  I just wish people who have NOTHING CONSTRUCTIVE to add would simply stay away, keep quiet, NOT fish our events if they are not willing to at least give it a shot.  To dismiss something BEFORE you try it is a great example of shallow and often selfish thinking.  The "that's not the way we've always done it" mentality will simply bring about the end of anything new before it's had a chance to grow and blossom.  To paraphrase:  "if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got."   New ideas should be welcomed, not dismissed.

I think of myself as an open minded kind of thinker.  Willing to give just about anything a shot if it shows merit (and to me, 100+% payback has merit).  I think this is what is missing from many bass fishermen/women in Michigan.

Quote from: Waterfoul on December 08, 2009, 10:32:34 PM

Quote from: djkimmel on December 08, 2009, 08:40:01 PM
I don't think either one of you meant for things to sound the way they might be taken guys. Please remember it can be easy to read into things that honestly were not meant. I know I get that a lot :)

I used to run tournaments a long time ago and have been involved in the various federation tournaments in both organizations at times. It is not what I consider a 'fun' job. Like any leadership position, it is challenging to find the right volunteer (or low paid help) to run the event well.

Was simply asking who you are Mike.  Your posts make it sound like you are somehow involved directly with one of the organizations.  No animosity should be read into anything I posted earlier.

I'm just tired of hearing people (not you Mike, but many others) saying "you can't do that, it will never work" or "that won't work over here."   Some on our TBF team have other aspirations here in the BEST bass fishing state north of Texas/Florida.  We are trying to start something NEW and DIFFERENT over here (that in the grand scheme of things IS involved with FLW/TBF) and we have a few people (who think they carry weight with other anglers) saying what we are trying to establish won't work.  How could a 100+% payback tournament series WITH corporate sponsorship NOT attract anglers?  I just wish people who have NOTHING CONSTRUCTIVE to add would simply stay away, keep quiet, NOT fish our events if they are not willing to at least give it a shot.  To dismiss something BEFORE you try it is a great example of shallow and often selfish thinking.  The "that's not the way we've always done it" mentality will simply bring about the end of anything new before it's had a chance to grow and blossom.  To paraphrase:  "if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got."   New ideas should be welcomed, not dismissed.

I think of myself as an open minded kind of thinker.  Willing to give just about anything a shot if it shows merit (and to me, 100+% payback has merit).  I think this is what is missing from many bass fishermen/women in Michigan.

Obstacles: Attitude, Ego, and preconcieved notions

Solutions: Improve attitudes, leave our egos at home, and start to open up to change

PLAN OF ACTION: Currently being developed by NASA's finest and MIT's brightest!

The key phrase Waterfoul is "100+% payback tournament series WITH corporate sponsorship".  Based on the posts in this thread, I'm assuming you're refering to a no entry fee state championship.  Has the TBF of MI secrured enough "corporate money" to make this work?  I guess my point is while this is a great idea and I hope it works, I still think an organization should be financially established and have the infrastructure in place (ie. scales, tournament trailer, etc..) before they worry about anything else like no entry fee events.  Maybe that's just the business side of me speaking, and not the fisherman, but I personally think it's also just common sense.

Again, like I said, I hope this works and I'm not bashing anyone.  I'm all for new ideas and trying to change things up, but you can't always do everything at once.

my ? is,the TBF is been in business for a few years now.....how come we don't have scales?(because they cost money,i know that)
it would seem to me the first or 2nd year it should have been #1 priority to get scales..(i mean how do you have a fishing tourney without scales)
I would be up for a donation being taken at the state fish-off(since we are the one's using the scales) to help pay for future scales or offset the cost of one if we get it before the state-fish-off...

Here's a question:  Who says the TBF doesn't have a scale??  Are we perhaps jumping to a conclusion?  Basing this on old information??

Just curious.  I'm a curious guy!  LOL!!

Once again not a lot of time but...

That's the first I've seen or heard of 100% payback for this tournament. That shouldn't be difficult since 100% of zero (entry fee) is zero.

I've been asking what the dollar amount goal is for the State Championship since earlier in this thread at least a couple of members complained that the funding for the state team wasn't nearly enough.  Unless I missed it, nobody has bothered an attempt to answer that question.

it sounds like TBF has been using the BFL scales for the last couple of years(at this level i think u need more than a good $150 scale)
 so the ? is to any TBF board members in the know....do we have our own scales?

I don't see where Waterfoul said the 100% payback tourney was the TBF Fish-Off.  He said "they" were trying something different on the West side - nothing about the TBF in that statement the way I read it.

If I'm wrong, I apologize.  But I think there's some jumping-to-conclusions here.

Waterfoul; I am a small time club angler that has grown frustrated with the federations have been run, especially BFN.  I'm no great fisherman and I don't have any aspirations of becoming pro, fishing at a club level is really all I care to do.  I know Dan has been working hard to develop the TBF (along with some others that have worked hard) and I offered some opinions of things that could possibly make the TBF "The" federation of choice but these are just my opinions.  As stated my club is affiliated with BFN but I personally don't care for the Mickey Mouse way they run their fish-off and would hope the TBF places more importance on the way they run their fish-offs.  The reason I bring that up is not to suggest TBF fish-offs have been run poorly, they have not but 2010 will be (from what I understand) the first time they run their fish-off without the assistance of the BFL.  As far as scales it is my understanding that at this time TBF does not own scales and Chip Harrison is providing scales for the Muskegon fish-off.

Return Investment on Outdoors; Good one :D....and very true!
:D

Quote from: Waterfoul on December 09, 2009, 04:26:26 PM
Here's a question:  Who says the TBF doesn't have a scale??  Are we perhaps jumping to a conclusion?  Basing this on old information??

Just curious.  I'm a curious guy!  LOL!!

The board said they didn't have scales at the last TBF meeting...Were you there????

Scales are a relatively cheap investment we shouldn't be getting wrapped up in that debate....I am sure there are enough TBF sponsors that would be willing to donate product for sales or a raffle to earn enough money for scales no problem.....I would think within a year it would be pretty easy to generate enough money for a trailer, Tubs, pumps, scales, boards, etc etc to allow for a quality organized weigh in...

Quote from: Jighead on December 09, 2009, 06:42:02 PM
I don't see where Waterfoul said the 100% payback tourney was the TBF Fish-Off.  He said "they" were trying something different on the West side - nothing about the TBF in that statement the way I read it.

If I'm wrong, I apologize.  But I think there's some jumping-to-conclusions here.

Exactly... Not a TBF tourney, but a tourney under "the wing" of the FLW so we don't have to carry our own insurance.  We have secured our own 502c non-profit certification.

Quote from: motocross269 on December 09, 2009, 09:01:01 PM

Quote from: Waterfoul on December 09, 2009, 04:26:26 PM
Here's a question:  Who says the TBF doesn't have a scale??  Are we perhaps jumping to a conclusion?  Basing this on old information??

Just curious.  I'm a curious guy!  LOL!!

The board said they didn't have scales at the last TBF meeting...Were you there????

Scales are a relatively cheap investment we shouldn't be getting wrapped up in that debate....I am sure there are enough TBF sponsors that would be willing to donate product for sales or a raffle to earn enough money for scales no problem.....I would think within a year it would be pretty easy to generate enough money for a trailer, Tubs, pumps, scales, boards, etc etc to allow for a quality organized weigh in...

There's the answer I was looking for.  Was I there?  Nope.  Only been a TBF member for a week or so... besides... they seem to be on the wrong side of the state for me.  Simply can't afford to travel to these meetings.  Plus, I work till 7:00 or so every night of the week but Monday and this time of year it's impossible to change that.

Some of you fellas seem a little surprized that people outside of your organization are following this and would care to comment on your discussion. Just because someone isn't a member of TBF (and I currently am not) doesn't mean that they don't follow your progress, or lack thereof, to see if they may want to join with you.
As much as I'd love to see both federations thrive, I'm not really sure that there is enough bass fishing interest in a northern state like Michigan to have two really vibrant, active, effective federations. I could be wrong. I hope I am.
Personally, I think we'd all be better off if we were all united under one banner. Which one? A few years ago I was convinced it was TBF/FLW.  Today I'm not really sure it makes any difference.
You can tell me that I'm not a member, so my opinions don't matter. You may be right, but every angler is a potential member and one thing is certain, if you're going to survive, you have to grow. One way to help that would be to put on the very best State Championship tournament that you can.

So why are guys making such a big deal about scales?

I'll tell you why. A few years ago, FLW reps came to the Novi fishing show to talk to us all. They showed a nice movie about youth fishing and talked for an hour. Their message? "B.A.S.S. is a media organization. We are a tournament organization". "They know how to sell magazines. We know how to run tournaments."

Sounds great. That year BASS didn't have their fish off on St. Clair. The door was wide open for TBF to have their first fish off on LSC. It would have drawn a big crowd and lots of new members. Where was the the first TBF fish off?  The Grand River. Raise your hand if you're one of the twelve guys that went. A golden opportunity blown. Why the Grand? Because that's where the BFL trailer was that weekend. Next year, LSC the day after the BFL. Nice turnout, nice tournament.
Year three Burt/Mullet in June. Why, because that's where the BFL trailer is. Honestly, if you had a choice, would you schedule the premier event of  your season during the spawn the very next day after 150 boats full of some of the best BFL anglers in the midwest get done picking those beds clean?
How attractive is that for the average club member?
I asked Dennis why FLW made them have the state championship the day after the BFL. (An assumption on my part) He explained to me that the BFL didn't make them. TBF had to do it because they didn't have their own scales and tubs. The BFL was actually doing them a favor by staying in town an extra day.
FLW Outdoors says you are a first class tournament organization but you can't afford a few thousand bucks for a good set of scales and some plastic tubs, but you want to make your fishoff free? ???

A lot of folks are very interested in your progress and are pulling for you to succeed. I know I am. It would do us all good to have two great federations in Michigan. The surest way for you to attract angler attention (and membership) is to put on a first class state championship at a venue that a lot of guys really want to fish.

Opinions will vary but there are 400,000 bass anglers in Michigan and I want them all to be federation members. Regardless of the variety of things it takes to attract a broad base of members it is important to do the things you choose to do as best you can with the volunteers and funds available.

Quote from: Waterfoul on December 09, 2009, 09:11:52 PM

Quote from: motocross269 on December 09, 2009, 09:01:01 PM

Quote from: Waterfoul on December 09, 2009, 04:26:26 PM
Here's a question:  Who says the TBF doesn't have a scale??  Are we perhaps jumping to a conclusion?  Basing this on old information??

Just curious.  I'm a curious guy!  LOL!!

The board said they didn't have scales at the last TBF meeting...Were you there????

Scales are a relatively cheap investment we shouldn't be getting wrapped up in that debate....I am sure there are enough TBF sponsors that would be willing to donate product for sales or a raffle to earn enough money for scales no problem.....I would think within a year it would be pretty easy to generate enough money for a trailer, Tubs, pumps, scales, boards, etc etc to allow for a quality organized weigh in...

There's the answer I was looking for.  Was I there?  Nope.  Only been a TBF member for a week or so... besides... they seem to be on the wrong side of the state for me.  Simply can't afford to travel to these meetings.  Plus, I work till 7:00 or so every night of the week but Monday and this time of year it's impossible to change that.

I know Jeff Cox is probably going to be looking for volunteers to work the TBF Booth at the Lansing or Grand Rapids show.(I am not 100 percent sure about GR)..That would be a good place to start and that would save you some driving....


We all have busy schedules and I challenge every member to volunteer for at least one event a year..One show, the Junior State fish off, whatever...This year Jack Cahn is working on a conservation project and I am sure he will need help with that(This project may be the new conservation director's baby now)....If we have 150 members and everyone does one event we will be way ahead of the game.....I have seen the struggles that Brian, Eric Bond, Jeff Cox and Dan Kimmel go through trying to get volunteers to field TBF events...I, like most people, are super busy but as long as I am a member of TBF I will find a way to at least do one or two events a year....I guess I consider it the very least that I can do....I know how many hours the board, Brian, and other guys put into trying to make this work....

Well said Dave.  I think they might be surprised that both current and potential sponsors are also following this ;D

QuoteThe surest way for you to attract angler attention (and membership) is to put on a first class state championship at a venue that a lot of guys really want to fish.

I believe they are accomplishing this by holding the Fish-Off on the west side at Muskegon.  My understanding (from what I've been told) is that this step alone has already grown membership.

Quote from: Jighead on December 10, 2009, 08:46:16 AM

QuoteThe surest way for you to attract angler attention (and membership) is to put on a first class state championship at a venue that a lot of guys really want to fish.

I believe they are accomplishing this by holding the Fish-Off on the west side at Muskegon.  My understanding (from what I've been told) is that this step alone has already grown membership.

The Championship on LSC has helped also...Along with 2 state fish offs....Maybe they should have an east and a west championship with a grand championship on neutral territory to decide the team.... ;D

Quote from: Dave Fogleman on December 09, 2009, 09:18:51 PM
Some of you fellas seem a little surprized that people outside of your organization are following this and would care to comment on your discussion. Just because someone isn't a member of TBF (and I currently am not) doesn't mean that they don't follow your progress, or lack thereof, to see if they may want to join with you.
As much as I'd love to see both federations thrive, I'm not really sure that there is enough bass fishing interest in a northern state like Michigan to have two really vibrant, active, effective federations. I could be wrong. I hope I am.
Personally, I think we'd all be better off if we were all united under one banner. Which one? A few years ago I was convinced it was TBF/FLW.  Today I'm not really sure it makes any difference.
You can tell me that I'm not a member, so my opinions don't matter. You may be right, but every angler is a potential member and one thing is certain, if you're going to survive, you have to grow. One way to help that would be to put on the very best State Championship tournament that you can.

So why are guys making such a big deal about scales?

I'll tell you why. A few years ago, FLW reps came to the Novi fishing show to talk to us all. They showed a nice movie about youth fishing and talked for an hour. Their message? "B.A.S.S. is a media organization. We are a tournament organization". "They know how to sell magazines. We know how to run tournaments."

Sounds great. That year BASS didn't have their fish off on St. Clair. The door was wide open for TBF to have their first fish off on LSC. It would have drawn a big crowd and lots of new members. Where was the the first TBF fish off?  The Grand River. Raise your hand if you're one of the twelve guys that went. A golden opportunity blown. Why the Grand? Because that's where the BFL trailer was that weekend. Next year, LSC the day after the BFL. Nice turnout, nice tournament.
Year three Burt/Mullet in June. Why, because that's where the BFL trailer is. Honestly, if you had a choice, would you schedule the premier event of  your season during the spawn the very next day after 150 boats full of some of the best BFL anglers in the midwest get done picking those beds clean?
How attractive is that for the average club member?
I asked Dennis why FLW made them have the state championship the day after the BFL. (An assumption on my part) He explained to me that the BFL didn't make them. TBF had to do it because they didn't have their own scales and tubs. The BFL was actually doing them a favor by staying in town an extra day.
FLW Outdoors says you are a first class tournament organization but you can't afford a few thousand bucks for a good set of scales and some plastic tubs, but you want to make your fishoff free? ???

A lot of folks are very interested in your progress and are pulling for you to succeed. I know I am. It would do us all good to have two great federations in Michigan. The surest way for you to attract angler attention (and membership) is to put on a first class state championship at a venue that a lot of guys really want to fish.

Dave,

This is part of the reason that both federations seem to have problems - They divide the state!! its Detroit area against the rest of the state! You guys over in that area think that every state fish off should be held on Lake St. Clair and pee and moan when it is put somewhere else. They always argue that they want to catch lots of fish and when its put somewhere where the fishing is a little harder most of them won't show up for it, where in the tournament law of bass fishing did it ever say that it needs to be easy to catch fish, I would much rather fish a tournament that was hard - you are never out of it until the last minute. Until the federations can bring the state together and start acting like they care about the rest of the state, Like centralize the meetings instead of putting them down in the bottom corner of the state - Memberships will not reach the potential that Michingan has as one of the leading Bass state in the nation.  Other states don't have the problems that we do, becuase most have limited number of reseviors and we have an unlimited amount of lakes through- out our state.

I would be more than willing to work the booth at the Grand Rapids show... but I HAVE to put my business first... and this time of year I am often alone in my store simply because of my payroll budget.  Just a fact of the retail business.  BUT, be assured that I will put in some time down there when ever I can.

And I agree with you Sterk... I'd rather fish a tournament where the fishing is a bit tough, where you HAVE to actually fish for your limit instead of just going out and EVERYONE catching big bags.  That's not to say that the Muskegon venue can't have days where everyone catches them... I've seen it happen often.  I think a lot of eastern Michigan anglers just don't know what kind of fisheries we have over here.  I'd stack White Lake up against any venue on the east side.

Quote from: sterk149 on December 10, 2009, 09:57:08 AM
Until the federations can bring the state together and start acting like they care about the rest of the state, Like centralize the meetings instead of putting them down in the bottom corner of the state - Memberships will not reach the potential that Michingan has as one of the leading Bass state in the nation. 

Dude....you have got to be kidding me, the meetings at Bass Pro Shops, there just couldnt be a better meeting place "for a bass federation" and WE ALL can make it worth our drive there by either picking up something we need becouse WE ALL use product they stock or taking the family or just ourselves for a day at a REALY cool outdoor's store.
Coming from a state that didnt have a BPS until just recentley I can say that IMO michiganders take BPS for granted, Do you realize that peaple take vacation's out of their state just to see a BPS ?

IMO the closer TBF can stay to BPS the better, hey they just GAVE us a tremendous fund raising opportunity and the youth has another fund raising day coming up at BPS, that was just something that was tossed our way becouse we were there having a meeting plus they gave everyone a 10% off coupon....just for being there.

Just those two days alone will make a dent towards the causes of TBF and dont ya kinda think....just a little bit....that having support from such a huge fishing and outdoors company kinda helps TBF and its causes ?

I live an hour from BPS, its not as long of a drive as ALOT of you guys but in all honesty Id drive 3 or 4 hours to do a couple scheduled meetings a year at BPS, I still allways walk by the Aquarium and reels...and rods...and hunting stuff....ummm I could go on longer lol.

ok so I know Im coming off a bit strong, Im not bashing you so please dont take it that way it just surprized me that you thought BPS wasnt an acceptable meeting location, the 2010 state fish off  is on Muskeegon, thats the west side brutha...on a lake I dont know and its a 4 hour ride for me, and I'll be there and be happy to be there attempting to live the dream....and just having fun fishing with like minded friends!

Now with that being said I know its been mandatory for a rep from each club to be at the meeting to have your club be state fish off eligable, I kinda disagree with that becouse we are a big state especialy when you are coming down from the U.P. or just have a family event that takes priority.
All Id realy care about is your club is a paid member and is united with the mission of TBF, if you choose to not have a president or rep from your club at the meetings to hear, be heard or vote thats your choice but again thats just my oppinion.

A couple of you guys are interpreting what you're reading in the wrong light.  ??? Dave Fogleman is a friend of mine, we are in the same club of which he was club president for five years, and he is also dissatisfied with the BFN.  We both would like a better federation option than what we currently have, which is why we are commenting on/to the TBF and giving our opinions regarding the organization.  The fact of the matter is most federation members don't get too wrapped up in the politics of federations.  As stated in an earlier post, most don't participate in conservation issues, youth issues, or fund raising issues, they just want to fish.  They really don't care which federation they are in and once they are in one they need a good reason to go through the trouble of switching, and that is the situation our club is in now.  Our club has discussed coming to the TBF. I would like our club to leave.  I would like to move our club to TBF but the first question the club will ask me is "Why would we be any better off".  At this time I can't say TBF has better leadership because I don't know if they do.  At this time I can't tell them; "the TBF runs a better fish-off" because I don't know how well or even who will be running their fish-offs in the future.  The BFL team has done a great job in the past but they are no longer in the picture.  The Muskegon tournament will be the first TBF fish off that the TBF will run by themselves, and even then they are using Chip Harrison as MC and his equipment which is something that will be temporary.  The problem is and has been NO SCALES!  This is the point Dave Fogleman was making.  He is fully aware both federations MUST move their fish-offs around the state to accommodate their members.  The point he was making was; not owning scales has hurt the TBF and acquiring scales doesn't seem like much of a priority.  If the TBF gets scales and a crack tournament team to run their fish-offs and BFN continues to operate as poorly as they have been, members will come to TBF and stay!    ???

Cool Mike I hear you and understand exactley what your saying about losing the FLW trailer and your other points, I dunno if I woulda put Pauls name out there but ok moving on let me just say please read this forum as constructive progress for TBF not destructive and the guys in this post and TBF are 110% with you and are passionatley working to make TBF a better Federation choice and something you would want to be a part of.

A while back I asked why we didnt have scales and it came down to a $ thing.
Thats understandable to me becouse theres alot of things in my life and my business I need but I cant fund.
what I do though is I try to chip away at it if possible, Ive tried making seperate funds but ALOT of the time an emergency or just something more important would come up and I would have to use those funds therefore making my origanal goal further from achievement.
Now what I do is if I can buy the things I need in parts I buy parts as I can afford them and I have physical evidence of progress.

Im going to bring it up at the next meeting and see if TBF could just say ok in 2010 we will buy a scale and bags.
in 2011 TBF would buy tubs and pumps.
we could tranport that equiptment in the bed of a truck, suv or van...and we all have vehicles that fall into those catagories.

Then set 2012 or 2013 as the year to try to make the big trailer purchase or put feelers out for a donation of a trailer, ya just never know.
If the trailer purchase doesnt work out TBF could rent a 6'x12' enclosed u haul trailer for $30 a day and have a banner made that covers it  ??? I mean lets be real this trailer would be used less than a few times a year but my point is I think a weigh equiptment purchase should be a priority.

Im not sure what costs what but Ive seen a tournament ready weigh trailer for sale for $5k.

Im guessing a scale would be $500 or so  ???
Tubs and pumps $500 to maybe $1000  ???
weigh bags $200
a computer  ???
trailer $3500

so around $5k to $7k total but $700 to get started and be able to weigh our own tournament if needed.

I know theres guys here that know what kind of scales work best and how much they cost  ???

Anyways I do understand why TBF doesnt yet own weigh equiptment and so far the couple state championships Ive fished have gone realy well, Im sure Chip will be great for us this year in Muskegon but IMO we do need a scale and the freedom to have TX's wherever is best for us not where weigh equiptment is available and Id hate to see TBF spend $ to rent weigh equiptment like they allready have.

just more of my .02 worth  ::)

What if one of the clubs, which happens to have a good scale (not a $100 scale, but a high quality scale) were willing to let the TBF use it's scale at the State Fishoffs (since WE will be there anyway) and support said scale while in use (battery and such)??  This would solve the problem at this years Fishoffs.

I honestly don't see the need for a trailer.  A trailer has to "live" somewhere, thus becoming someones "burden" in my opinion.  We all drive some kind of truck or SUV... easy enough to tote a scale and tubs around (so it seems to me anyway).

Quote from: Waterfoul on December 10, 2009, 05:33:22 PM
What if one of the clubs, which happens to have a good scale (not a $100 scale, but a high quality scale) were willing to let the TBF use it's scale at the State Fishoffs (since WE will be there anyway) and support said scale while in use (battery and such)??  This would solve the problem at this years Fishoffs.

I honestly don't see the need for a trailer.  A trailer has to "live" somewhere, thus becoming someones "burden" in my opinion.  We all drive some kind of truck or SUV... easy enough to tote a scale and tubs around (so it seems to me anyway).

Think of it in terms of a boat purchase - say you only fish once a year (which is how many tournaments the TBF has with the expection of this year).  Do you buy a brand new boat, buy a used boat, or lease/rent a nice one for the day? 

I would have to say that most economical choice would be to lease/rent a nice one for the day because you don't have to worry about insurance coverage, depreciation, and maintainence.  That same thought process can be applied to weigh-in equipment.

The equipment is only a small part of the whole deal, it takes some experience and practice to run a smooth tourney with 50-150 boats so the equipment is just part of the equation.  Chip has run multiple 80 plus boat events so he has the experience and the equipment to make it a great event.

Skip's idea to obtain the necessary equipment in phases over the next few seasons is an excellent and realistic goal - I think we can all agree it is more of a peace of mind thing than anything, maybe a little pride thrown in there as well. 

East Side, West Side, Scales, entry fees, and a few other themes seem to keep creeping into the discussion which is great because it shows how committed we all are to make this thing one special deal year after year.  We will all have our own opinions and ideas but lets focus them on things like how to get 250 people to Muskegon Lake on the 11th.  Membership will be extremely high this year and it will be a great run tournament, after that we can all come back and argue our points. 

Does anyone else truly see the opportunity we have by coming together and putting our opinions on the backburner?  We all do it for different reasons but if you're not having fun what is the point; the only thing holding Michigan back from being mentioned in the same paragraph as TX and FL is our attitudes and opinions - it is our stubbern pride that takes the fun out of it, it is an easy fix we just have to start moving forward with everyones interests as our focus.

Sterk,
Your strong comments caused me to go back and re-read my post as I didn't recall writing any of the things that you spoke of in your reply.  I'm really not sure where you got the idea that I think a lake should fish "easy" to attract anglers, and I sure don't know where that whole "east side/west side" stuff came from.
But since I'm new around here, I'll chalk it up to me not being as clear as I should have been.
Let me try it again and I promise to keep the "peeing and moaning" to a minimum.
I do agree with you on one thing. As a southeasterner, I appreciated only having to drive to BPS for president's meetings but fully realize that it's really not fair to the guys outstate. In fairness the meetings should either be rotated or held in a central location.
Other than that, your whole "east/west" argument is baloney. I have friends on the Lake Michigan shore that only like to do the fish off when it's on LSC. I also know plenty of metro detroiters who enjoy going to Muskegon and absolutely love to fish Charlevoix. Two of my club members fished the divisional in Escanaba this year and would go back in a heartbeat. Those are not opinions, they're facts, so let's not perpetuate this "east/west" nonsense.
To your second point on lakes being "easy":
Clearly the the TBF needs to increase membership if it's going to make it. So it would seem that a well run tournament on a lake people want to fish would make sense.  I didn't say "limits for everybody", I said a lake people want to fish.  I sited the first fish off at the Grand River, extremely poor attendance! Why? I don't have a clue, but they just about had to draw straws to see who made the team. The reason I mentioned LSC is because it just happened that BASS didn't hold their fish off there that year and it was open and would have made a great innaugural fish off for the TBF and attracted a lot of anglers(Westsiders and Eastsiders)
Unfortunatly they n't go there because they didn't own their own equipment.
As for my comments on Burt/Mullet, if you were the tournament director in charge of choosing a date and a lake, would you ever in a million years put your state championship on during the spawn on a lake the very next day after 150 BFL boats fished it? Not if you had a choice. And my point was they DIDN'T HAVE A CHOICE because they didn't have a $500 scale and a few tubs! I know many anglers decided not to participate, so the end result was it cost the TBF more membership.
I apologize if I wasn't clear enough in my previous post.  And for what it's worth, I couldn't agree more that a tough tournament separates the men from the boys and usually reveals who's put in their time on the water and who hasn't.

LSC and Erie have humbled many anglers....I fished a tournament event on Erie and watched a pro that had just won 200 grand just before that on the same water only catch one fish...So I really wouldn't consider it a matter of being easy all of the time..Anyone that says they fish easy should be over here filling their bank account every weekend....

Muskegon/White lake are pretty good fisheries and I really don't think anyone should be too concerned about catch rates....It is a nice change of pace and I wish the BFLs would go back there...

Where would be a good place to hold a TBF meeting that is centrally located???  Suggest it to the President...I like BPS because of the 10 percent off but that is just me but I am willing to drive if I am available...The site location has probably been about the number of members and clubs that are east of Lansing vs West...I know there has been an increase of West siders this year so that may be something that the board should look at....How many clubs are there currently West of Lansing???

Let's see if we can find anything negative here...

Since Texas and Florida were mentioned as TBF affiliates to look up to ("the only thing holding Michigan back from being mentioned in the same paragraph as TX and FL is our attitudes and opinions"), it should be noted that according to their websites, the TBF of both Texas and Florida have a $100 entry fee for their State Championships.  I couldn't find membership numbers listed anywhere.  They might be there but it's late and I'm tired.

Okay, let me sweep that paragraph with the negative detector...nope, just facts.  So, Mr. Cox, does this post meet with your approval?

Quote from: motocross269 on December 10, 2009, 11:58:39 PM


Where would be a good place to hold a TBF meeting that is centrally located???  Suggest it to the President...I like BPS because of the 10 percent off but that is just me but I am willing to drive if I am available...The site location has probably been about the number of members and clubs that are east of Lansing vs West...I know there has been an increase of West siders this year so that may be something that the board should look at....How many clubs are there currently West of Lansing???

Well, there's a Gander Mountain in the Lansing area... maybe they would let US us their "Lodge" room??

As for clubs west of Lansing... I know of at least 3 with decent and GROWING memberships.

The lodge room at the Gander Mountain Lansing is very small. The board can meet in it, but probably not a well attended member's meeting. We've done it a couple times in the past with small meetings. At times they have it packed full of stuff and unusable.

Quote from: cameraguy on December 11, 2009, 12:46:24 AM
Let's see if we can find anything negative here...

Since Texas and Florida were mentioned as TBF affiliates to look up to ("the only thing holding Michigan back from being mentioned in the same paragraph as TX and FL is our attitudes and opinions"), it should be noted that according to their websites, the TBF of both Texas and Florida have a $100 entry fee for their State Championships.  I couldn't find membership numbers listed anywhere.  They might be there but it's late and I'm tired.

Okay, let me sweep that paragraph with the negative detector...nope, just facts.  So, Mr. Cox, does this post meet with your approval?

When did we start filing complaints with the Attorney General's Office - I think Mike Cox does a decent job as Attorney General but I don't know if that warrants getting him involved with the TBF. 

Come on now dog!  What can I do to help turn that pouting :'( frown into a smile ;D?

I got the Holiday greeting from Mr. Cox today....I am a little concerned that he thinks some of the comments on here are Negative towards him personnally or the TBF board...I really don't see it that way at all and I have not seen any personnal attacks on either...I will use the Scales as an example....I have not seen anyone say the past or current board are bad leaders because we don't have scales..What I have seen is members commenting on "We don't have scales, what can we do to get some"....The no fee state fish off....Some of us have thrown up a red flag and questioned if we couldn't use the entry fee money to fund the State team and some other areas but I haven't seen it as a personnal attack...
I really don't think anyone on here is saying "Jeff/TBF board you guys don't know what you are doing"...I think it is more along the lines of concerns and getting clear the intent of the board and the President...I appreciate the boards volunteerism and we all have to remember that these guys aren't getting paid(It is probably actually costing them money), I think most of the posters here understand that.....

Any politician, Military leader, or supervisor can tell you it takes thick skin to lead an organization...You are going to have people criticizing your moves no matter what you do...Your job as a leader is to sort the valid concerns from the BS...You can't ignore them and concerns have to be addressed....Lead from the front, Don't ask anyone to do something that you wouldn't do, learn at times to keep your mouth shut and your ears open, and remember it is mission first and people always and the organization will have a chance to grow....

I think this thread has been a pretty fair and open minded discussion...

Great post with excellent points.

Quote from: Return On Investment Outdoors on December 11, 2009, 01:58:40 AM

When did we start filing complaints with the Attorney General's Office - I think Mike Cox does a decent job as Attorney General but I don't know if that warrants getting him involved with the TBF.  

Come on now dog!  What can I do to help turn that pouting :'( frown into a smile ;D?

No, not MIKE Cox. Ha! Dat vas a good von.  :)  

To answer your question...a little sleep and...Motocross said it pretty well.  Some of us are looking for answers and discuss how to make it a better TBF.  We need to make sure that some of the core reasons for having this organization are not overlooked while trying to find a quick and overly simple approach to, what will be a never-ending problem with membership numbers.  

Very good advice moto for anyone who wants to be a leader.

Well after a phone call to the TBF president today Im kinda wishing I hadnt posted about needing a scale and just called him first.

Im now 100% convinced that the tournaments have been and will be run at a top notch level and thats what we need to be the leading federation, we have allready seen how upset peaple get when a weigh in doesnt run smooth if you refer to a few posts back.

I know that using FLW equiptment and their weigh master/MC couldnt go smoother or have more of the true professional tournament atmosphere.
Chip has run big tournaments and fished top level tours and on top of that is a nice guy that Im sure will be a great personality to have at Muskegon.

IMO the state championship is the most important function of TBF but only becouse we wouldnt have the youth and conservation group we have without that "ONE" tournament.

We only have the one tournament a year, if TBF went out and bought all the equiptment it would be $5k to $10k and have to be updated/replaced every 5 to 10 years plus insurance and thats for a small little trailer and then it needs to be stored somewhere and maintained/upkeep and then run by a professional and that professional needs to have a REALY great personality IMO to give the weigh in some life plus Jeff also pointed out something I never thought of and that was what if a scale breaks at a 80 particapant plus tournament, half are allready weighed and released then it breaks, you dont have a spare scale or you have a cheapie that may weigh a bit different...so youd need two of the same scales...thats expensive!
I didnt realy put any thought to that either but I have seen scales break, if someone knocked me out of 1st or wherever by just a couple tenths from a different brand or model of scale Id possibley be upset.

When I was going to bat for obtaining scales the first thing Jeff said was Skip we have access to scales "wherever" and whenever we need them, heck even a board member has all the equiptment thats totaly at TBF's disposal and several clubs have made it very clear TBF can use their scales .
After I moved on from TBF owning weigh equiptment for just one tournament I wanted to know why do we rent scales, from what I got out of the conversation was it works great, its professionaland organized and looks professional and organized then he brought up the point of fish processing, handling, and speedy release and at some TX's a release boat on lakes like st clair that need a release boat to get the smallmouth out to cooler cleaner water than what is available at the ramps and several other great points were brought to my attention that I hadnt realy put the thought into.

I admire the fact that Jeff has survivability/conservation in mind which goes beyond what I was thinking when I "thought" we needed a scale.
Jeff mentioned many more reasons and good points, I dont want to quote him on anything so I dont get in the middle of anything but I will tell you that Im 110% convinced that he has nothing but the best in store for TBF future and is doing everything in his power to not blow the budget, have the best fish off, take care of the youth and participate in conservation efforts as well as member growth.

if you have any questions or doubts call him and ask him for yourself (734-429-2580) or attend a meeting and ask.

one thing that Jeff asked me that made a ton of sense to me was if I needed a piece of equiptment only one day a year would I go out and buy the equiptment and pay for it to sit 364 days a year or lease the finest equiptment available for the day and save $

Quote...but I will tell you that Im 110% convinced that he has nothing but the best in store for TBF future and is doing everything in his power to not blow the budget, have the best fish off, take care of the youth and participate in conservation efforts as well as member growth.

That's exactly the same feeling that I get from talking to him.  I've got no doubt that the TBF Fish-Off at Muskegon will be a great event (as the previous ones have been) and I'm really looking forward to it.