I've been reading and comparing other boats and I think something is just wrong with my 2006 Skeeter zx225 hpdi 225. I don't have the specs with me as I am writing this, but I will get them tonight.
No matter what I seem to do, I just can't get the speed out of the boat that others with similar and EXACT rigs are getting.
Any experts out there that care to chime in on some steps to follow to help get this thing dialed in?
Thanks!
Remember these are fisherman posting their speeds ;D size of bag and speed of boat is subject to the 20 percent exaggeration limit ;D
For the people that post on bbc and other boards - I know and I can factor that in .. most people did post exactly what was in their boat when they tested so you kind of have to take it more serious with that extra info.
For the people that I personally know that have similar rigs and are faster, I just don't get it. I know what they have and are loaded with and their setups and I can't seem to get mine dialed in.
How do you compare with RPMS, prop hieght, prop pitch, etc etc with the other boats....?? As you know there are some prety setup savvy guys over at BBC that can figure out where you should be at with some basic numbers.....
This may sound stupid but I have heard of guys not having their throttles open up all the way with both foot and hand throttles....
OK, I hate to be a disbeliever in BBC, but I would consider all top speed claims suspect. Sorry, but it's true.
I run a 2000 TR-21, one of the fastest hulls triton made. I have a massaged 225 that turns about the same power as a hot 250XS. I've also got a custom 27 trophy that holeshots like a 27, but runs top end like a 29. And I can just touch 80 mph.
Go on the top speed page at BBC, and everyone's triton does 80.
I'm sorry, but breaking 80 in a bass boat is tough. Doable, but unless you run a stroker/bullet/alison, it's tough.
Take any numbers you see posted and reduce them by 5 %. If you want a real world estimate, search on prop calculators. Knowing the weight of your rig, plus HP, you can estimate about how many MPH you should be able to achieve with 7-10% prop slip.
That's the real world sign of efficiency, 7-10% prop slip. If your fit that real world measure, you're doing well for that hull.
Sorry to bash anyone, but if I had a dollar for everyone on BBC that had negative prop slip for their rig when calculated, I'd be a pretty rich guy.
SIZE DOESN'T MATTER!!! ;D
You're boat was faster but then you went and had twins... so now it's slower. You'll be okay! We'll just fish on no wake lakes from now on and then no one's the wiser!
I once had a guy try to catch my 'slow' old Ranger Bass boat from Muskegon to White lake. He had a ____ (drop in whatever name you think these guys own that think their factory boat is HOT) that would run 89 mph?!?!? WITH A 225!! (I don't know whether to add a smiley here or a 'ROTFL... etc?)
My poor ole Ranger just does a modest 59 to 61 mph. YET... he never caught me all that way and he was right behind me coming out of the river??? BIG tournament! Lots of boats. I asked him if he was just trying to make me feel better about myself and he said he didn't want to catch me.
My question is - do you think I should have thrown a spinnerbait on White that day, or a jig and pig?
Okay, my real question is - do you think my GPS uses slower satellites than other peoples' GPS?!? That's what I think it is. My GPS keeps linking up with the slow satellites! I don't feel very good about myself. I think I need to spray some spam... no..? pam, on the bottom of my boat!?!
That might be the day the other guy passed me going up instead of forward?!? You really should slow down for those big tuna boat wakes!! At least trim down a little. Passing someone going up in a bass boat is bad. That's what I think anyway.
I talked to him later too. He says, 'that wave came out of nowhere!' I said, 'no, it came out of the back of the 36' tuna boat that crossed in front of us.' We disagree about that to this day. Of course, I got to beat that 89 mph boat to White Lake while he spent the day in the hospital with something called 'brain trauma' or some such. To be fair, I had a couple hundred yards head start on the 89 mph guy. (and no brain trauma)
Quote from: Lightningboy on June 20, 2012, 11:19:58 PM
I'm sorry, but breaking 80 in a bass boat is tough. Doable, but unless you run a stroker/bullet/alison, it's tough.
Or Bass Cat.... ;) ;D................
they say that my boat a 07 skeeter zx200 should run 72 mph with the exact set up i have. i got it 67 once but mostly 65-66. i even bought a brand new prop cuz my old one had some dings and got shaved down a bit. i think my jackplate needs adjusting but who has the time to go out and play with that all day? not me. 66 is fast enough for me anyway. but 72 would be cool.
McCarter himself :-\'
P.S. im also fat, but it cant make that much of a difference!!! can it?
I'm fat also...but I just compensate by carrying more gas in my Left tank... ;D
For me it is more important that my boat come on plane and stay flat in rough water than go 80 MPH....I will give up 5-6 mph top speed to keep the boat from wallowing in rough water all day...
True - 65 is fast period! But I also pee standing up so that makes me want to go fast too. I'm just tired of not getting out of the boat what it is capable of getting.
So once more: 06 Skeeter ZX 225, 12 inch jack plate, Yamaha vmax hpdi 225, standard prop that came with the boat. Gets me 65.
Just seems like there should be more ...
One thing I have learned owning Skeeters is that they do not like to have weight forward in the boat.
I have an 04 zx225 and with weight in the very front compartment, you will easily loose 1-2mph.
BTW my boat will run right at 70 gps with this setup - A 25T-1 Yamaha prop at 3.25" below the pad, 5900 rpm, by myself, no weight in the very front compartment and 1/2 tank of gas.
Hopefully this helps.
You mean the 2 middle tackle compartments or the 2 side rod lockers?
Ho do you measure the "3.25 below pad"? I know there are links on BBC, etc. ... Just tell me in plain English.
Fords got a zx225 with a 225 yami and is getting 69 and isnt even propped right. I think we need someine to give us a set up clinic. I dont trust myself with tools. Last time I adjusted my jackplate, it was crooked for 2 monthes and I had no idea.
The pad is the distance between the bottom of the center of your hull to the center point of your output shaft...(prop shaft).
How I check it is just put the motor down to where its level with your hull. Make your boat level by taking your trailer jack up or down. make sure you are on flag ground and measure from the botton of the center point of your hull to the ground. Then measure from the middle of the prop shaft to the ground. Subtract the prop shaft distance from the hull distance and that is your pad.
From what ive read, most zx225 and zx250 run best around 2.25"-1.75" below pad. They teld to like to be just barely in the water! Beware tho that if you run big water you prob dont want to take your motor up that high cause you will blow out easier.
My zx250 runs around 66-67 with a tournament load and Im turning a pos crappy prop (6100rpm), 1.75" below pad.
Some posts I've read mention the 225 and the 250 are the same block and guts, etc. Only difference is the computer. Is that true?
Genie, what model/pitch prop is on it, and how many RPM are you turning at 65 MPH?
Sorry to drone on, but here's my synopsis on boat set up:
First, prop with a pitch/model you know will turn the motor to the redline. Since two cycle performance depends on air conditions, you may need more than one prop across a season. Summer time I run a 25 trophy, but spring and fall a custom 27. Different props can run better or worse for you depending on what conditions you drive in or how you load your boat, but getting one that should do the job in general is a good starting place.
Next, adjust the jackplate height. Measure pad to propshaft distance, and take it for a run. Keep moving the plate up in 1/4 inch increments, and making runs. The idea is to keep raising the motor until you don't go faster top speed, or you run out of water pressure. On that note, to do it right you need a water pressure gauge. I wouldn't be without one.
After adjusting jackplate height, you can improve the holeshot if you have a plus system mercury prop. The pvc plugs can be drilled to help ventilate the prop enough to let her spin up to get you out of the water.
How you load the boat makes a big difference. Going fast means eliminating friction with the water. That's the reason for raising the motor on the plate, to reduce L/U friction. So that means getting hull clear of the water. Weight forward in the boat is heavier because of the lever principle. You wanna see your rig scream? Take off the TM. It's 60 pounds, but mostly it's right on the nose of the boat, making it even heavier.
But as was mentioned above, it's all a compromise. Raising the motor may make you faster, but you lose your grip in big waves. That's why I love having a hydraulic jackplate. Change height as conditions dictate. I'd never be without one again.
Genie, I feel your pain. You've got a rig that should be capable of a certain amount of performance, and you expect that. The right set up makes the boat most efficient too. Right now I've got a 95 mustang GT 'vert; 302 under the hood, but has the standard 2.73:1 gears. What's the use of a mustang that can't even do a burnout? :-[
Quote from: Genie on June 21, 2012, 01:24:08 PM
Some posts I've read mention the 225 and the 250 are the same block and guts, etc. Only difference is the computer. Is that true?
There's also the extra 25 horseys?!?
You will be much happier if you go with my no wake lake suggestion. Then you can load it however you want!
Quote from: Lightningboy on June 21, 2012, 11:28:11 PM
Genie, I feel your pain. You've got a rig that should be capable of a certain amount of performance, and you expect that. The right set up makes the boat most efficient too. Right now I've got a 95 mustang GT 'vert; 302 under the hood, but has the standard 2.73:1 gears. What's the use of a mustang that can't even do a burnout? :-[
Chicks?!?
Shoot! I'm going to have to censor myself...
I will look again at my config so I know what it is doing this weekend. I'm also waiting on some measurements and info from some of the other boats that are comparable to mine to see what their setups are.
Ok - here are the stats on one of the comparison boats ...
'03 Skeeter ZX225 with '03 Yamaha HPDI 225 ... 3 blade 25 pitch Mercury Marine Tempest Plus prop ... jack plate is "slid up" 1 13/16 inches.
Top speed is 70 at 5800 rpm's right now. He got 72 or 73 earlier this year in colder water with exact same gear, weight, fuel, etc. He said he needs to lower the motor a little because he is getting a little blow out on takeoff and in rough water.
Ready?
1) 09 ZX225/225 yamaha-25 yamaha T1, 12 inch slidemaster, 1.75 below pad. 73.6 mph @ 5900 rpm
2) 06 ZX225/225 yamaha-25 yamaha,12 inch slidemaster, 71.6 @6050
3) 04 ZX225/225 hpdi- 25 trophy, 12 in slidemaster, 2 in below pad. 73.5 @ 5800
4) 09 ZX225/225 hpdi- 27 tempest, 12 in slidemaster. 73.8 @ 5850
5) 04 ZX225/225 hpdi- 25 T1, 12 in slidemaster, 3 in below pad. 72.3 @ 5700
6) 04 ZX225/225 yamaha- 25 yamaha, 12 inch slidemaster. 72.9 @ 6000
7) 07 ZX225/225 hpdi- 25 yamaha, 12 inch slidemaster. 72 @ 5800
Looks like what you expect is in the right ball park. Time to go adjust that plate and experiment. Just remember to keep minimum water pressure.
Expect to gain power in the spring & fall, and lose it in the summer. Great excuse for two props... ;)
Dan- you've been a riot lately. Your chick satement is right on the money; everybody calls 'em "wife gears". ;D
At least you'd win a long distance race with those gears ::)
Good - so it's not just me thinking this is crazy ... an it has nothing to do with me being fat! :)
I think Dan has new meds!
don't ignore weight balance left and right of center as well. you should probably run all batteries, co-angler and gear on the left side of the boat only. keep the right side empty ;D
I'm not that fat!
Speed limit on inland lakes in Michigan is 55mph (unless posted lower). You can't exceed 55mph unless you are more than 1 mile offshore in the Great Lakes. So as long you can go 55 you are all set!
Signed 'party pooper'
When did Kimmel get old ... sounds like my dad ...
He was probably a voice of reason. Don't you know you should listen to your 'parents?!?'
Well, I'm old enough to be the dad around here too.
But I'm never gonna be too old to have a life full of "seemed like a good idea at the time". ;)
See. I have to be a little more the other end of the scale so we balance each other. I complete you ;D
Starting to remember a little more about the setup I have ... man, having twins and only being in the boat 5 times in 2 years tends to make me feel old too!!!!
Anyway, the motor is "slid up" and 1.5 inches and the prop was replaced with a turbo 26p I beleieve ... prop has 6 13m and 26p stamped on it.
After all is said and done, adjust correct pad height stuff, etc. what prop should be on it?
Lightningboy, all those setups you listed ... what are the differences in the prop names - T1, T2, Tempest, Trophy, etc.?
What is the T1 and T2? Assuming Tempest is a brand and Trophy is a brand. Assuming Yamaha is the standard Yamaha prop.
The T1 and T2 are yamaha props; the trophy and tempest are mercury props. The turbo is made by precision propeller of Indiana.
Each company sells a variety of prop models to perform best on different types of hulls. I'm most familiar with merc props. The tempest is a 3 blade that works well on lighter, well balanced hulls. It spins up pretty fast for a good holeshot. Think 17-19 feet, 150-200 hp. The trophy is a four blade that works best on heavier hulls that need a lot of stern lift. Think 3.0 liter motors on 21 footers.
The 25/26/27 is the blade pitch. In general, smaller props like a 25 will launch you better, big props like the 27 will give you higher top speed.
You need to adjust the set up for the prop you've got on, and see what it's performance limits are. Then you can think about whether a different prop might improve some aspect of how the combo works. My rig is stern heavy, so a trophy seems to be best.
You need some accurate numbers to start. How many inch setback is the jackplate, what's the present prop shaft below pad measurement, how many MPH top speed @ what RPM with how many PSI water pressure. Make several runs to make sure you're accurate.
Then we can start adjusting. Time to burn gas!
Dan- "you complete me"-Bwahahaaahaha :D
I have a ZX202. Don't know the length of your boat, but we are comparable. I have the 225 ox66 motor, and a 12" hydraulic jackplate. I run a 27 pitch Yamaha prop. I have no idea how high to run my jackplate, as the indicator is broken and I haven't replaced it yet. My speed varies from day to day. By myself, on a very choppy White Lake, with maybe 7 gallons of gas, I got 70.4 out of it, that is gps speed. On a very flat day, using the jackplate, and having my son with me, we gps'd 71.6 on White. On Mona with my dad and uncle, I got 66.7 out of it. I was impressed with that, having 3 guys that go from 200 to 270.
These are not stretched truths. Honest to god numbers. I really wish I could tell you how high I run my plate, when I use it. Without it, and with one other guy in the boat, I usually run 67+ with no problem. At wide open throttle, mine runs about 5600 rpm's. I very rarely fill either of my tanks. Mostly throw $20 in at a time.
Genie, if you have a free afternoon, and want to come to Muskegon, I will gladly let you try my prop out. Let me know.
Mike - will definitely take you up on that ... when I get an afternoon ....
That should happen in about 17 years!! Signed 'Grandpa Kimmel'
(just kidding, the twins will let you go fishing once in a while)
The twins don't know any difference yet ... it's Mrs. Genie that needs to go along ...
If it makes all of you bass boat guys feel any better about top end speed, you all look like you are doing 200 mph as you blow past me with my 30HP evinrude. Everytime my buddy and I have a bass boat blow by us, we comment how we were just "humbled" ;D. We then usually start talking about how there isn't a better sight on water than a bass boat with the only the back few inches of its hull in the water and fly's across the top.
Any suggestions on how I can get more than 20 MPH out of my 25 year old evinrude? Or even better, what I can do so the darn thing will idle?
Thanks for any help, and always remember...no matter how slow you think your boat is, there is probably someone on the lake watching you wishing they had your boat. Whether its me watching a bass boat or some guy on shore watching mine, someone is probably envious.
Good Point!
TimH- Your old motor probably just needs a little TLC. If you haven't done it, you should change plugs every two years. Swap the L/U lube every fall. New water pump impeller every spring.
But most old motors have problems because of fuel delivery. Varnish deposits in the carburetor especially are at prime fault. First step in my book with an old motor is Seafoam. I mix a "strong" amount of Seafoam in the fuel (according to the bottle instructions) first time I run an older motor. Then a lighter mix for each tank after. Does a great job of cleaning up two cycle fuel delivery systems.
Be aware that the Seafoam treatment may cause some fuel gaskets to leak. Not the cause of the problem, but just uncovering a bad gasket that was sealed by the varnish deposits.
I fished out of a 14 foot Starcraft with an old white '66 Kiehaulfer Merc 6 horse for quite a few years. Did the things I mentioned above, and she ran great.
I know I'm a gas burning dinosaur who's on Al Gore's top ten carbon footprint offender list, but I hope they never kill two cycles. Almost indestructible motors when cared for regularly. I still clean the snow every winter with my Dad's old '72 Ariens 7.5 horse 24 inch snow blower.
Nice to know some of the tin boat guys are fans of shiny glass. Too many treat us like we're "pimp boats". ;D
TIM, you sound like my wife. She always tells me how there is somebody in the world who would love to have my truck, or my boat.
As far as making your 20 horse faster, drink more beer! Everything is top fueler fast with the right amount of beer. Just kidding. Bore it and stroke it! Just kidding there too. Wait till its time to upgrade boats and buy a really fast one.
Use my 'surfing tuna boat wakes' suggestion! I could get another 3 to 6 mph depending upon the strength of the wake and how well I caught the edge when I had my 14 foot boat with the old 20HP!!! ;D
OK - I had my window of opportunity on Sunday and I went to Muskegon and did some testing (and a little fishing) ;D
Unfortunately, I couldn't get the exact pad measurements because of the roller on the trailer (red arrow in picture). But I did get a measurement for the jack plate (two black arrows in picture). I raised the jack plate before I got on the water because last time running, there was absolute no prop blow out so I knew it could go up. Well, the jack plate distance measures 1.75 inches on both sides so I know it is level and I fired it up.
The water temp was 82 degrees, the boat have half full gas tanks (so 25 gallons), empty livewells, all my fishing gear, and just me. I was only able to get one or two runs in because I got there a little late in the morning and it was a little rough. Boat still popped out of the hole awesome - no blow out. If I popped up and turned hard, there was a little blow up, but nothing major so I think the height is right.
Well, I hit 70.5 on run one and I think I was turning 5600 - a little rough so hard to see at that speed. Second run was about 70.15 but it was a lot rougher and I was scared - yep said it ... don't like the boating jumping around like that in rougher water - still like the speed but calm speed. I could definitely tell there was more of the boat out of the water - even kicked up my side imaging transducer. Steering was still good too.
So, I think I might have it! I will look for a calm day to really get some more precise readings and do a little further tweaking. BTW, how do you measure the pad distance and such with that roller in the way? Take the roller off?
Sweet!! It's way more fun to go 70, isn't it? The prop offer is still open if you want to give it a shot.
I was on Muskegon yesterday evening, and it was real rough on the west end. Didn't dare run 60. I must admit, I am a little timid now due to the mess I almost got into on White last Tuesday night. It's kinda scary when you get into some waves that you didn't see, and the next thing you know, the boat is straight up and down in mid air. My new lesson was slow down and look harder at the lake.
The fish will still be there even if you take an extra 60 seconds to get there. Of course, you have to get there first... maybe slow down a little more often. Speed limit on the main lakes of White and Muskegon - 55mph...
Should we have a poll to guess Dan's age? Based on that post, I would say 104.
Anyone?
Quote from: djkimmel on July 09, 2012, 03:01:31 PM
The fish will still be there even if you take an extra 60 seconds to get there. Of course, you have to get there first... maybe slow down a little more often. Speed limit on the main lakes of White and Muskegon - 55mph...
Oh, but I was still in the no wake zone when that happened! Just kidding. It's all about the stupid pride. See, my ROI partner was behind me, and I really didn't want to let him catch me. My boat is a little faster, but that Champ sure does soak up the waves. He saw me start to come up, and he trimmed down and never had to let off the throttle. Needless to say, he got around me, and by the time I got out of my mess, I had no chance of catching him.
Yeah, Genie, 104+! Just kidding Dan.
It would be great if you could post a pic of the transom/pad area from directly behind the boat/trailer.
You don't need the level to stick out from behind the hull to measure. Have a buddy man the crank while you get under the stern with a level. Hold the level on any flat area along the length of the pad & have them crank up/down until the pad of the boat is level. You can then measure from pad to floor for a baseline measurement.
Now trim the motor (with prop off) until the prop shaft is level without moving the boat crank. Now measure from center of prop shaft to floor.
Math time; subtract the prop shaft to floor measurement from the pad to floor measurement. You now have the prop to pad distance.
Hitting a new high speed means you're not far off. Do you have a water psi gauge? You really need one to do this safely. You mentioned you felt the prop blow out (lose grip). You really don't want that to happen. Trim down slightly in turns to keep grip, and trim up when running straight/flat.
The main measure of how high you can run the motor is water psi. You must maintain minimum water psi when running WOT. Standard method is raise the motor 1/4 inch at a time until you lose minimum psi, and bump back down 1/4 inch.
Watch your trim angle also. Lots of drivers trim too high and actually lose top end. You want a rooster tail about 3 feet high, or about as high as the top of your cowling. Anything more than that looks cool, but actually wastes speed.
They feel different when you really get that hull out of the water, don't they? :o ... it gets pretty addicting... ;D
duh - I should have thought of that to measure it right. Just wasn't thinking - I was trying to to the measurement at Fisherman's landing and just wasn't thinking.
I did notice my water pressure gauge not working correctly though .. normally it is spot on and works every time. Sunday, it was pegged when the motor wasn't even on. I do watch the water port (the pee port) on the motor all the time and it was peeing just fine all day so I know I never ran it dry, but I don't know what the pressure actually was.
Is the gauge shot or is something just plugged?
Water pressure gauges should go to zero when the power is off. They are "mechanical" gauges; there is an actual hose from the stern to the gauge.
Two possibilities. One, the hose is plugged. Probably not since your gauge is pegged when off. Try taking the hose off and blowing it out.
If that doesn't work, (sorry, but probably won't) the gauge is shot, time for a new one.
Hey, check out Livorsi Marine. They've got colored gauge bezels; might as well pimp it out a little while you're at it. 8)
The engine did get plugged last time out (not Sunday but time before) and I had to really throttle and forward/reverse to get it unplugged ... could be something to do with that.
Is the hose inside the cowling?
I think you can check it from the attachment under that dash?? At least, you could in the 'old' days... gramps kimmel
This one's for you 'kids'...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvV3nn_de2k
I think Dan still has that yellow suit ...
No... but rumors still swirl about some Rod Stewart-style leopard print pants...
Quote from: djkimmel on July 12, 2012, 11:33:21 PM
No... but rumors still swirl about some Rod Stewart-style leopard print pants...
THAT I don't wanna see !!!!! :o