Great Lakes Bass Fishing Forum

Bass Fishing => Michigan Bass Season => Topic started by: Mojo on March 23, 2012, 08:53:59 PM

Poll
Question: I believe the Michigan Bass Season should be:
Option 1: Unchanged votes: 17
Option 2: C&IR Feb 16. - Day before Memorial day; Possession begins Memorial day - Feb. 15 votes: 21
Option 3: C&DR Jan 1 - Day before Memorial day; Possession begins Memorial Day - Dec 31 votes: 38
Option 4: Open all year - No closed season votes: 62
Option 5: $15 C&DR permit, all year, Possession season remains unchanged votes: 19
Option 6: $10 C&IR permit, all year, Possession season remains unchanged votes: 18
Title: Michigan Bass Season POLL
Post by: Mojo on March 23, 2012, 08:53:59 PM
C&IR means : Catch, photo, measure, release immediately after within 100 ft of where fish was caught.

C&DR means: allows for tournaments to occur, but fish are returned to their waters.

This is the place to sound your opinion. To document it. So for example, Seth stated clearly his position and why.  Recommend to not agree, disagree or argue anyones point - just put your opinion on this topic.

Dan may be able to use these threads as a body of evidence.  

Also - drop a note if you have another option to add to the vote.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: SethV on March 23, 2012, 10:03:57 PM
More C&R season doesn't really change anything.  I guess its better than what we have now - but we really need to do away with the season for good. 

Those that think we need a C&R season should go join PETA or something.  Why in the world would we need "C&R" in March so we can't have tournaments, but its ok to keep them and have tournaments in the summer?  You aren't protecting anything - all you are doing is making silly laws.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: ROI Outdoors on March 24, 2012, 05:52:10 AM
Year round CDR permit (catch & delayed release) is the most sensible in my opinion.  Keep the harvest season the same and we are all set.........I'm confident that this will become reality in the very near future - common sense will reign supreme!

Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Skulley on March 24, 2012, 07:15:25 AM
ROI, Sometimes common sense isn't so common.  But I do agree with you on a CDR permit.  It is the most sensible.  This has been a long time coming.  It's too bad that we had to get there taking baby steps instead of using good conclusive data from other states, specifically Texas.  Those guys down there got it going on when it comes to the science of the species.  They have spent the money and spent the time in their studies. 


BD                       ;D
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Jmcfarland on March 24, 2012, 10:08:21 AM
I would like to be able to fish all year round. I would like to see the catch delayed release option put into effect during the open water period. Catch & immediate release through the ice would be legal. I don't see a lot of sense for catch delayed release ice fishing for bass. This would make it legal to have tournaments earlier in the open water season and would make scheduling and fishing more tournaments a lot easier. It would also make ice fishing and keeping bass for any length of time illegal. The more gas, hotels, lures, entry fees, etc,etc we're buying and spending money on the more that has to help the economy and state in one way or another. The harvest season would stay the same. I know up here if there are fish on beds during the open harvest season there being targeted by most everyone. Not just tournament anglers or recreational anglers. The difference is that the tournament anglers catch a limit of 6lber's off beds those fish go back in the lake within 8hrs. More recreational anglers have a tendency to keep them. Not all of them but a fair number. Why extend the time for that to go on? I'm not sure this was an option to vote on but it is my opinion.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Waterfoul on March 24, 2012, 06:25:03 PM
Im seeing polls like this on a couple other sites and I'm kind of amazed at the number of people voting for no change.  Not a lot of people, but some nonetheless.  I really don't understand that at all unless they are die hard traditionalists who fear change.  Just my opinion of course.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: bob o on March 24, 2012, 06:36:18 PM
ok lets go forward with this
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Mojo on March 24, 2012, 10:12:20 PM
Now the choices look like that from SALBRC. I'm embarrassed the mdnr represents our sport to law makers.  They depended on a flawed report from phD paneled people who rifled through documents written 40 years ago or worse. They claimed to review other states, but nothing is cited out of state. And the mdnr used this paper to support introducing changes into law.  Seems SALBRC was written to support their 3 biggest issues:

* keep people off the waters for 6 weeks "when musky, pike, and walleye concentrate to spawn". Afraid ppl will claim to be bass fishing. Those folks that fish for those species have the same addiction as we do, so I see them claiming to be bass fishing just like some of us claim to be pike fishing  ::).

* C&DR will expose nests and deplete the population.

* seeming to think nesting stops around April 1st, memorial day, or the 3rd week in June and bass nests needs to be protected

Based on these 3 issues, whether you agree or not, are the reasons we are limited in our
fishing. Each one needs a counter with data.

I think C&DR will not be Allowed during the spring, nor do I think they will move back the possession date. They're just too engrained.  ... This not my opinion.

So to get us off center, and something changed in the next 20 years, I propose either:

C&IR Jan 1 - the Saturday preceding memorial day - bass only, and you need a $15 permit.  Possession memorial day - Dec31st  

Or a slick tactic to tie some marketing for outdoorsman to increases in both bass and hunting that the retarded mdnr would love:

C&IR Mar 15 - the Saturday preceding memorial day - bass only, and you need a $15 permit.  Possession memorial day - Nov 14th. C&DR Nov 15th - Mar 14th

This last stupid silly law would:
* provide nest protection
* ensure you are fishing for bass during spawn not other species and you paid and have a sticker so you can't be caught and have to lie
*reduces possession season but promotes the outdoorsman to go get their hunting licenses after fishing season ( blows away the Dec 31 date ??? Why is it needed)
* allows dnr to market a proactive new tournament ice fishing opportunity to bring out of state monies to a new state winter sport (lol- wrapped snowmobiles, carrying sleds, blast off at daybreak, race n cut holes, crazy as it sounds, a new sport could be born in Michigan)

Not bad eh ? If we want something, we need to make them look like heroes in the process

This is my opinion

Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: thedude on March 24, 2012, 11:27:48 PM
i am for C&DR year round. Catch and keep from Aug 1st to Jan 1st.

Our catch and keep season starts at peak spawn. So the whole bed fishing thing is a moot point. We do it now for almost the entire state - only tournament anglers are not the only ones. The meat hunters have easy pickins when its perfectly legal to keep the fish and they are at their most vulnerable.


if the season were to be ever "closed" the logical time frame would be somewhere between may 15- june 15

Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on March 25, 2012, 04:48:11 PM
Quote from: thedude on March 24, 2012, 11:27:48 PM
i am for C&DR year round. Catch and keep from Aug 1st to Jan 1st.

Our catch and keep season starts at peak spawn. So the whole bed fishing thing is a moot point. We do it now for almost the entire state - only tournament anglers are not the only ones. The meat hunters have easy pickins when its perfectly legal to keep the fish and they are at their most vulnerable.


if the season were to be ever "closed" the logical time frame would be somewhere between may 15- june 15

This is directed at everyone. That is what Ohio did on Lake Erie despite the study they 'based' it on not being near completion - it was a knee jerk reaction because anglers were afraid and pressuring the ODNR to DO SOMETHING! So they did. They gave up tournaments during the approximate spawning part of the season with no scientific data showing that they had to. The study actually then became anti-climactic and basically forgotten. Many anglers claimed to support the move. That happens too often.

New York also moved their regular opening back farther because some anglers and some managers were afraid of what the meat hunters - who have been around forever - might do or be doing, or that fishing for spawning bass might ruin their great bass fishing - again, with no studies to support this move. Even the actual ongoing behavior of anglers demonstrated that it wouldn't actually protect anything.

Minnesota changed their statewide smallmouth bass season to catch and release only after Labor Day because a study done on one river smallmouth bass population showed those bass holed up in large numbers in one spot in the river were more vulnerable to being caught more easily at that time of the year. This change affected all kinds of water with no regard as to 1) whether the fishing in that one river actually could have negative impact on the overall population long term, and 2) did the wintering behavior and angler behavior in this one river situation apply to every other type of water including large lakes with large populations of bass that have multiple wintering grounds not so easily targeted! There are no studies to support that this was even necessary but enough anglers went along with it, so they did it. I talked to the biologist involved and he said anglers weren't against it because there aren't many tournaments that time of year and it is too cold for many anglers. Okay. So you can catch and release. But... what if they use this move to justify the next one that does impact tournaments more directly? You've already allowed the precedence that your willing to accept a broad change that doesn't actually have any scientific backing showing it will accomplish anything...

Why any angler is willing to give up fishing opportunity when repeated scientific data exists that shows they don't need to is beyond me, but I choose not to follow suit. I've read the studies and talked to many of the researchers, and it always comes down to water quality, habitat and weather patterns in the end, not seasons as to whether or not you have good bass fishing. It is possible though usually short term, to harm a small lake or river, or maybe even a very poor shield lake with a marginal population if enough people target it, but we are talking about regulations that cover an entire state with thousands of waters or a giant lake the size of Lake Erie.

You can enact special regulations for waters that show they need it, but why would you ever manage your entire range of bass waters to the lowest common denominator?!? That is what I asked that biologist from Minnesota and he did not have an answer. You are definitely taking away fishing opportunity when you do that and we can't afford to do that in this economy or with the declining overall participation, especially considering that tournament angling may be the only consistent growth area in fishing right now.

Our bass season has opened during much of the spawn being completed in Southern Michigan and before much of the spawn in Northern Michigan for decades, and large numbers of anglers (meat or otherwise) have been targeting bass out of season heavily for between 20 and 30 years, yet, on a whole, who can seriously argue that our overall bass fishing isn't better than it has ever been?

I'm talking statewide, not this one lake or that one river. We can do a ton more for body water specific problems by looking at water quality or habitat than we can ever do with a closed season, particularly considering many people don't and haven't honored the closed season for decades.

We can't control Mother Nature and that would be the number one impact year in and year out. Weather is one thing that scientists can say does impact the year to year success of our bass recruitment. And we can't do anything about that. We have been working on water quality for decades. It takes time, and vigilance to keep improving and not backslide since there are always efforts to 'relax' clean water regs. Habitat is whole other issue that could use a lot of work on some waters. It is also a more complex, localized matter.

So that leads some fisheries people and some anglers to feel, well, we can try to help with a closed bass season since that's the only option in our control (I believe the 14" bass limit in Michigan should have shown most people that was truly never true). 'Maybe that will make up for these other things that we can't control or have less control over?' The problem is, that study after study after study has shown that at a population level, a closed bass season accomplishes nothing at the population level, and occasionally next to nothing at a local level.

In the history of bass studies since the 1950's until today, there are only two studies that showed only on two specific bodies of water - a small lake in Wisconsin, and the Illinois River - any possible correlation at all to bass populations that might be related to allowing catch and keep fishing during the spawn, and that was that on the small lake in Wisconsin, the overall average size of smallmouth bass might have been reduced - that was without the 14" size limit that we have in Michigan that allows more bass to spawn before they can be legally kept - and on the Illinois River, they thought the bass average size also might have been lowered by heavy fishing during the spawn but other factors (weather, water quality, habitat) might mean this conclusion was not a safe conclusion to make so more study would be necessary before deciding upon that conclusion.

Other studies have shown that for smallmouth bass, if you have only 3 successful recruitment years out of every 10, you usually have what most anglers think is good bass fishing. Similar studies have shown that taking the weather into consideration, most of the time you get 3 or more successful spawn recruitment classes in 10 years and that the weather patterns were the overwhelming deciding factor in whether or not you got good recruitment years - not fishing. The effect on populations from fishing was so small that it was always statistically insignificant. Good recruitment year classes were almost always found to correlate to favorable weather, particularly during the spawn, and then again sometimes late in the season if it got too cold to early and stayed that way. Favorable weather during the spawn and you usually have good recruitment of new bass into the population regardless of fishing pressure levels. Unfavorable weather during the spawn and you often had poor recruitment of new bass into the population, again regardless of fishing pressure levels. That's what studies show. Repeatedly.

So, the anglers and fisheries people who think they can feel better because they are doing 'something' actually just end up taking away fishing opportunity that they don't have to take or give away. That is what bass studies from South to North have shown for decades. Add that to the misplaced belief that Northern bass need more protection than Southern bass because we have a shorter growing season and you end up with closed seasons in about 5 states out of 49 that have bass - all in the North. I have reported in the past that there is a fisheries researcher in Ontario who has been trying to prove for years that bass population affects can be tied to allowing fishing during the spawn mostly for smallmouth bass and he has repeatedly failed to do so even on less fertile waters in Canada.

I have talked to him directly. He really wants to prove this for some reason - probably the misguided over-zealotry that captures some young biologists who get so caught in the resource protection end that they forget their main stakeholders, their 'customers,' are anglers who want to catch fish - but he just keeps finding out the only bad outcome to fishing for bass during the spawn is to that individual bass being caught. No population level effects. None.

All you have to do is ask a biologist how many bass beds on the average lake have to be successful to have a good recruitment year? You have to remember, bass are just big panfish. They are - and have been for a long time - extremely successful at what they do. They spread their spawn out. They lay lots of eggs in multiple beds. They hatch tons of fry. Even the exotics that some feared would tip the balance have instead appeared to make bass on many lakes bigger on average than they ever have been! So who is winning that 'battle?' Now think about Ohio giving away two months of prime tournament fishing season on Lake Erie because of a fear of gobies even though the study looking at that was at least 3 years away from completion at the time they pulled the trigger. Why give away opportunity when there is no evidence available that doing so will make fishing any better? When studies actually support that the more likely problem is water quality or weather pattern related? Now, if they have some better recruitment classes, they may believe that closing the approximate spawn season to bass tournaments and catch-and-keep made things better even though existing studies would tend to say it is most likely weather-related first and water quality second with no study or data to support the closing had any impact. Bass populations are cyclic, especially on a body of water where wind has been shown to impact the bass spawn success.

How many of us believe it is also no coincidence that smallmouth bass have exploded in places where, first zebra mussels and now quagga mussels, cleared up the water so much?!? Smallmouth bass are site feeders. They are bigger and more numerous than ever on Lake St. Clair and Saginaw Bay. How have those bodies of water changed during this time? They have gotten much more clear and stayed generally much more clear. And the bass also have an abundant new food source - gobies - that is everywhere! Fishing pressure hasn't dramatically changed. It is about the same to somewhat more all year on St. Clair and about the same on Saginaw Bay for bass.

I'm not saying exotics are good. They aren't for many other reasons but I am saying the bass have adapted pretty darn good. That is why bass are so successful just about everywhere people put them. They are prolific and they adapt.

I also understand why people want to protect something they love so much. I do. Because I love bass fishing too. But I also believe we should always try to manage our fisheries so we can fish as much as possible so we can keep that love growing and have more opportunity to remind ourselves why it is important to do the real important things. Like fight for clean water and work to preserve and promote good habitat, and getting more new people into fishing for our future.

And I also believe we should get rid of problems that are artificially and unnecessarily created like the every spring fight over bass fishing out of season that divide us at a time when we can't afford to be divided more and more each day because of the things in the previous paragraph. All my life, I've seen way too much energy wasted between anglers and hunters fighting amongst themselves verses energy spent against the true foes of the future of our sport. It has to stop. So I support anything that can shift that balance.

And I feel that if we remove the season excuse/crutch, then maybe, finally, more anglers and fisheries people can put more effort into things like habitat and reasonable aquatic plant control that studies actually do support can improve bass fishing where improvement is possible. I know with many of you the fear of change comes from loving our bass fishing very much and not wanting to risk losing or harming it, but while you are being afraid of allowing more bass fishing - that frankly many of us realize is, and already has been happening for a long time, you are not putting your time and energy towards the things the might actually truly improve and protect your bass fishing - like wetlands protection and moderating aquatic plant control, legislation and efforts to erode clean air and clean water protection, and countering groups that want to stop hunting and fishing. Those are things you should fear and put your energies towards. Those are actually the things that will protect the bass fishing that we all love not a closed bass season. That's what the science says anyway. I'm going with the science. The benefits are so great.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on March 25, 2012, 05:01:29 PM
If my above post is too long to read, then just ponder this - Indiana has about 400 lakes and very minimal Great Lakes but allows catch and keep bass fishing ALL YEAR! Indiana has the biggest bass federation in the country and tournament fishing from before the spawn through late in the year including the very Northern lakes. It has been this way in Indiana for decades. Their bass are the same Northern strain of bass we have in Michigan. We even share some waters.

Look at LGMOUTH's recent Indiana fishing report. Look at the winning tournament weights from Northern Indiana lakes over the years. Talk to anglers who fish Indiana in the spring before Michigan opens their season. Ask about the numbers and size of the bass they catch.

Then ask yourself, if Indiana allows that much pressure year-round on 400 lakes including catch and keep all year, why haven't their bass been wiped out by now?

Then think again about Michigan right across the border, with 11,000 lakes and vast areas of Great Lakes, with a catch-and-keep season opener that was designed decades ago to take advantage of a holiday weekend boost in fishing pressure when our bass are most vulnerable to the average angler, why really do we not allow anglers to legally fish bass for almost 4 months?

I can tell you one thing I'm pretty confident about... Indiana wishes we'd stop being selfish with our water. They have plenty of fishing pressure and riparian pressure about all the tournaments already.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on March 25, 2012, 05:17:15 PM
SALBRC is unfortunate spilled milk. It happened at the time for a number of reasons - mostly bad - and (hopefully) is gone forever. If it tries to come back, I will do everything I can with every resource I have or can think of to put a stake through its gray heart. Some of the people behind are gone or have changed positions. The MDNR is way more open to considering things that will put more boat trailers in the public access sites, more campers in the state parks and sell more fishing licenses. Overall, I think the need to stop their losses will counter most of what is left of the old way of thinking.

The newer MDNR director Rodney Stokes use to be the Parks and Recreation chief. He was always reasonable in the past. The previous fisheries chief is now higher up and I found him to be a reasonable person. He was out of the picture for a lot of the SALBRC incident which, if it had not been the case, I believe things would have gone much differently through the whole process. He was there at the end when we got the catch and release season.

This page here is fairly new and a great example of why I think we can accomplish more. It says what it has needed to say all along and I think many MDNR employees are buying in to it. It matches what the people I am working with want to hear and need the state DNR, government and people to all buy in to - DNR - Four Priorities of the DNR (http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10366-252630--,00.html).

This is a summary (http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10366---,00.html):
• Mission Statement
The Michigan Department of Natural Resources is committed to the conservation, protection, management, use and enjoyment of the state's natural and cultural resources for current and future generations.

• Four Priorities of the DNR

    Renewing Our Emphasis on Customer Service
    Building Strong Support for the Recreation Passport
    Increasing Resident/Visitor Participation in Outdoor Recreation and Stopping the Decline in Hunting and Fishing
    Fostering the Growth of Michigan's Natural Resource-Based Economy

• Key Department Initiatives
Hunter and Angler Retention and Recruitment; Outreach and Education; Fish and Wildlife Health; Ecosystem Management and Forest Certification...

If most of us get on this same page, I think we can accomplish quite a bit.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: SethV on March 25, 2012, 09:34:58 PM
Quote from: Mojo on March 24, 2012, 10:12:20 PM
C&IR Jan 1 - the Saturday preceding memorial day - bass only, and you need a $15 permit.  Possession memorial day - Dec31st  

Or a slick tactic to tie some marketing for outdoorsman to increases in both bass and hunting that the retarded mdnr would love:

C&IR Mar 15 - the Saturday preceding memorial day - bass only, and you need a $15 permit.  Possession memorial day - Nov 14th. C&DR Nov 15th - Mar 14th

No way - what does this really change, other than adding a fee?

I wouldn't spend the $15 or waste my time here - I will keep leaving the state in the spring if I want to fish.

Over zelous "fishermen" in NY wanted to protect the resource without data.  They decided to ask the DNR for a 20" minimum on smallmouth in the spring.  I used to travel to NY every spring for several tournaments - not any more.  Took all the fun out of it when you are throwing back 5 lb fish since they won't bump and hope to find a "tall skinny one" just to take to weigh in.  The Make A Wish out of Buffalo used to be huge with over 100 boats.  Now, they are less than 30 and falling thanks to silly rules.

What I really want is less "help" from the DNR.  Open it up year round.  Don't add fees, don't stock fish (they don't anyway), don't mess with Bass - don't do anything for us but leave us alone.  Spend the effort on the meat hunting walleye, salmon, perch guys.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Mojo on March 25, 2012, 11:58:13 PM
Agreed, agreed, agreed..... All points.  But RIGHT NOW, status quo WILL NOT let ANY fishing occur in the spring, due to difficulties with meat hunters posing as bass fishermen, we lose 3 months to fish.

You want to tournament fish.  Most of us just want to fish. Those proposals open our ability to fish to all 12 months. Take away the permit and $15 bucks, it's chump change but people get goofy about pay to play concepts.  $15 is like a buck tag. And It would give me something to show the officer.

So right now, I think thse are compromises both sides are willing to take. Again just my opinion.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on March 25, 2012, 11:59:25 PM
I like the way you are thinking. There's way too many unnecessary regulations in the North. Letting anglers who have never read studies or talked to bass researchers make major protective changes to bass regulations has always been a bad move in my mind. I was so impressed a few years back when they tried something like that in Maryland and the biologists said NO. What the anglers wanted would not scientifically accomplish what the anglers said they wanted to accomplish. The biologists told them that and did not let the 'change' go anywhere.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to protect the resource but there's many things wrong with giving away opportunity that doesn't do what you think are you doing it for.

And as I told one member privately, you're not going to find me pushing for new fees, permits, patches, bass taxes or whatever. We have enough of those and it would just be another unnecessary hurdle. I have no doubt it will come up multiple times but I will try to kill it every time it does come up. All I want is what we should already have. The science is 100% behind that.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on March 26, 2012, 12:57:08 AM
Quote from: Mojo on March 25, 2012, 11:58:13 PM
Agreed, agreed, agreed..... All points.  But RIGHT NOW, status quo WILL NOT let ANY fishing occur in the spring. They clearly state that due to difficulties with meat hunters posing as bass fishermen, we lose 3 months to fish.

You want to tournament fish, most of us just want to fish. Those proposals open our ability to fish to all 12 months. $15 is like a buck tag. It would give me something to show the officer. It would let us have paper tourneys as early as march and get us on the water earlier.

Status quo. RIGHT NOW won't let a bass be plucked off their bed for sport and hauled 5 miles away. They won't let 30 guys pull 150 fish off their bed, 3 times a week during spawn.

So right now, I think these are compromises both sides are willing to take. Again just my opinion.

You apparently have never attended a meeting where the MDNR is bringing up new fees or an increase in licenses. If that is true, you will be surprised at how brutal the backlash can be, especially when you get to the more average anglers and groups that represent them. I've been at a number of these meetings. It has always been ugly. Right now, people definitely don't want more fees or taxes.

My opinion is that your proposal will not only muddy the waters with the average angler, you will also turn off more of the dedicated bass anglers who otherwise might support additional changes. This is based on the reaction we got at every public meeting that last go round when someone inevitably brought up 'the bass stamp.' Instead of talking about the bass season, people ended up arguing about the need of a new fee. Can you say, 'counterproductive?'

You are also wrong about our season being to protect against the meat hunters. You need to quit reading that SALBRC thing as far as trying to relate it to the present situation before we fully know what the present situation is. SALBRC was full of text that was more about bad tactics including scare tactics and divide-and-conquer tactics than science along with some unfortunate personal stuff. Just putting out that many options in the first place was a good way to muddy the waters up so much that some people hoped to use that to control the decision they had already made up front. I sent the 'paper' to a number of well-known, respected bass biologists at the time, and they were all disappointed to see something like that put out by other fisheries people. We felt forced to do our best to show as many people as possible how much misleading text it contained. It was a bad time where we felt we had to apply equal and opposite force.

It is over and done now. We got the best we could then despite that paper, and put that paper away only to be a reminder about how bad relations can lead to much bigger problems than necessary. I have thought about deleting it many times but decided until I am 100% sure that we will no longer be hit with something like that again, I will keep it available. You definitely can't take everything you read in that paper as real and true. I do not want to foster a fight that might not even be there. I want to get along. But I know that some peoples' fear of change may not allow these types of changes to ever be easy, but maybe if we try to be friendly up front, they will do the same. I hope nothing personal left over from that time makes things harder. It is always possible but I hope not. I haven't heard or seen any indication of things heading in that direction again.

There is an element of anglers out there who will probably voice the concern about anglers saying they are bass fishing while targeting walleye. I think that is a ridiculous argument but I can't discard that easily. It came up last time from the organized walleye groups and some other anglers, and it may come up again this time. Of course, we already have laws for that and if someone keeps a walleye out of season, well, it would be pretty easy to write that ticket, wouldn't it? And how many anglers will really do this? Actually, the real question is, how many will do this that aren't already poaching out of season anyway because those kind of people just don't care. They will always figure out a way to break the law when they want to. I don't think a longer bass season is going to dramatically increase the number of people who do this but I do imagine the fear of change that it will happen will make that one issue definite issue that will have to be addressed.

I have always said, I will never favor or support regulations that take away a lot of opportunity from the good anglers and hunters because of a few bad persons. That is the wrong way to manage our natural resources long term. In Michigan, we still limit good outdoors persons way too much because of a few bad persons. There's lots of room for improvement.

The meat hunter claim was just a complicating matter to the season issue. Having a common opening day that didn't complicate regulations was a bigger influence than that claim. People consistently complain about the complexity of fishing and hunting regulations. Some even say the more complex the regulations, the more people who quit fishing and hunting. That may be true. But then again, there are still tons of people in Michigan who think either A) you can legally fish for bass whenever you want, or B) you can't fish for bass at all until Memorial weekend. Believe you me, I talk to people who say one or the other of these all year long. I talked to a bunch of them at the outdoor shows. So, I wonder how many people actually ever read the regs? Several members on this website and other websites this year did not believe me when I told them walleye and pike were close on inland waters after March 15.

There are many other issues, real or perceived, involved in why our bass season is the way it is and how it ended up in its latest form. There were even people who said the season shouldn't be changed because then the MDNR was rewarding lawbreakers by making their lawbreaking legitimate. You had to be at all the meetings, read all the editorials and listen to the various radio broadcasts to have most of it down.

Luckily, what is important is the overwhelming science says closed bass seasons don't work, and all we have to do is convince a reasonable number of the right people that the positive aspects of allowing more bass fishing for the certain percent of 400,000 Michigan bass anglers and the additional visitors to Michigan that want to fish far outweigh any perceived or claimed negatives. The simpler we keep it, the better the odds we get somewhere. The more progress we make in the right direction, the more progress we (and other states and provinces) are likely to make in the nearer future. The last big survey the MDNR did showed that most people just wanted more bass fishing opportunity and didn't see why we couldn't have it. That survey made a big difference and I agree with them.

So tell your friends, your neighbors, people you run into at the boat ramp, the studies for the South and North show that closed bass seasons don't work and that we can have the choice to fish for bass whenever we want to and have the time. You get enough people to listen and think about it, who knows what we can accomplish.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Team houston on March 26, 2012, 11:14:48 AM
No new taxes or user fees. Mostly because th DNR does not spend any money on Bass. If you let them get the foot in the door you will see that fee steadily increase. With the exception of Trout, no other species has to pay extra. WHY SHOULD WE?
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Mojo on March 26, 2012, 11:46:28 AM
Just a reminder - This thread is requesting that you document how you want the bass season. We stated earlier - do not copy someones idea and then trounce it.

The thread is to display where people stand. I guarantee dozens of fisherman will not even respond now for fear of conflict - based on some of these responses. And when people throw up their hands to avoid being unpopular, or avoid conflict, they leave those decisions that affect them ... to non fishermen, pH Ds, and non fishing lawmakers .........  or fishermen who want a very specific thing.

Dan has brought alot of history and knowledge that many of us did not know existed, so we all learned. Education is infact key. The owner of GLB does infact get privledges we do not ... but I was hoping for everyone to place their opinion and what their ideal Bass Season should be.

Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Redbone on March 26, 2012, 11:56:55 AM
Lets just say... I'd rather be fishing! ;)
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: bigmojet on March 26, 2012, 12:04:59 PM
I am not a tournament fisherman(yet) but i know i would pay an additional fee to fish sooner. But as what happened to me and snowmobiling i paid the inceasing fees every year until i had enough and got out of the sport a couple years back.

I would like the catch and keep season to start after the spawn but up north here that could be the end of june.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Waterfoul on March 26, 2012, 01:34:15 PM
I agree with Dan based on some reports I've read and discussions I've had with him and several others "in the know" in the state.  Proposing new fees or more confusing regs will get nothing accomplished.  I'd like to see bass season open all year.  Plain.  Simple.  No confusion.  No extra fee.  I'd rather see them do an increase to the FISHING LICENSE itself than have some other kind of "catch and release" fee.  I buy the both licenses every year, and I rarely trout fish any more... but I might.  A simple $28 covers me for any species.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: bigmojet on March 26, 2012, 02:32:23 PM
I also buy the all species license every year but havent fished for trout or salmon in 3 years.

When i fished the rivers heavy for steelhead most of the winter into April, i really didnt mind waiting till bass opener(before c/r season on bass) cause i had end of april thru may for pike.

Know i just want to go catch some bass and have to wait another month. I bet i would win the cleanest rod and reels tourney as thats what i have been doing for the last 2 months.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on March 26, 2012, 03:21:00 PM
Quote from: Mojo on March 26, 2012, 11:46:28 AM
Just a reminder - This thread is requesting that you document how you want the bass season. We stated earlier - do not copy someones idea and then trounce it.

The thread is to display where people stand. I guarantee dozens of fisherman will not even respond now for fear of conflict - based on some of these responses. And when people throw up their hands to avoid being unpopular, or avoid conflict, they leave those decisions that affect them ... to non fishermen, pH Ds, and non fishing lawmakers .........  or fishermen who want a very specific thing.

Dan has brought alot of history and knowledge that many of us did not know existed, so we all learned. Education is infact key. The owner of GLB does infact get privledges we do not ... but I was hoping for everyone to place their opinion and what their ideal Bass Season should be.

No one should be afraid to speak their opinion on this website. If they are, I have to ask why? But you also can't expect to state your opinion and not get other, sometimes opposite opinions back. That is the essence of any good, adult discussion. Just keep it about the topic and not the person. I think everyone is doing that.

I also don't expect everyone to agree with everything I say or think. People have disagreed with me plenty of times. I haven't banned any of them or deleted their comments. Sometimes they delete their own comments. I only delete comments that are spam or appear to just be out to start trouble because they are bored or whatever drives people to stir things up when they sometimes don't even care about the issue. I RARELY have to do that.

If someone is afraid to disagree with me because it is my website, I can't really help that much other than to say you can disagree with me. But you can also expect that I will often actively debate and push for my own opinions and ideas as hard as anyone else. Why wouldn't I? Why wouldn't anyone? I'm not right all the time and like anyone else, I have my own reasons for thinking the way I do.

If we all thought alike, that would be pretty weird and not much fun. We should be able to debate things and state our opinions on here without getting angry or taking it too personal. That's kind of how our society is supposed to work. We all have enough in common on this forum that we should be able to handle that.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on March 26, 2012, 03:29:09 PM
Quote from: Waterfoul on March 26, 2012, 01:34:15 PM
I agree with Dan based on some reports I've read and discussions I've had with him and several others "in the know" in the state.  Proposing new fees or more confusing regs will get nothing accomplished.  I'd like to see bass season open all year.  Plain.  Simple.  No confusion.  No extra fee.  I'd rather see them do an increase to the FISHING LICENSE itself than have some other kind of "catch and release" fee.  I buy the both licenses every year, and I rarely trout fish any more... but I might.  A simple $28 covers me for any species.

I agree that our fishing license is an amazing deal. I now buy the full license every year even with my greatly reduced income. I might fish for just about anything anymore if I get the chance. I greatly sympathize with our MDNR about their budget challenges. They rarely raise the license fees and every time they do bring it up, it is quite the spectacle. I was on the MUCC board of directors during one of those times. There was some solid support and some screaming about this group or that group would no longer be able to afford to fish. I agree it is fairly ridiculous considering all the gadgets and things so many of us spend our money on, but there is some truth to it too. You raise the fees and some people quit.

Personally, I want our Michigan natural resources to get everything it needs because I do believe that is our present and future, and it so very important to me. But... that is another issue for another topic. The more we mix into just trying to get our bass regulated based on all the available science verses what we have now, the harder it will be to make any progress.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on March 26, 2012, 03:40:11 PM
Look, what I would like to have verses what I think we can get is always different. I wish it weren't so but I don't have unlimited resources of time, energy and money. It is hard to get a good number of anglers on the same page and doing what is needed when it comes to changes. At this point, I don't even know what might be possible verses very hard and probably not possible. I hope to have a better idea by the end of April. Maybe.

Who knows, maybe we will be pleasantly surprised, but realistically, it is more likely some people will be made more happy and some people will be disappointed. That is pretty much how all public changes go. I tend to put my energy towards what I personally think is possible so I don't waste time and effort on what I think is not possible for many different reasons. I have butt heads in the past but it is not very much fun and can have long term costs. I prefer not to.

There is always the option for anyone to get involved and try to get what they want. Change can be accomplished if you work hard and smart enough with enough resources and support. But the change you want can determine how hard it will be, and then you have to decide if you have the time, energy, drive, resources and support to succeed. If you don't, then you will just butt heads and waste a lot of effort. You also just might make it much harder for others to get anywhere at all. That is just how public change goes.

For now, I'd like to see what might be possible first with the most efficient use of time and resources, and then figure out what to do about it. Like I said, there is always the chance we will be pleasantly surprised. Maybe. Maybe not. Who knows?

With public change, sometimes the only way to get to the top of the stairs is to take them one step at a time.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Mojo on March 27, 2012, 12:06:19 PM
Interesting. The poll has shown some interesting data to preserve:

* < 5% want no changes
* Almost 50% support C&IR of some form (47%)
* More than 1/3 (37%) wish for a full open season
* 1 in 6 are willing to pay for additional fishing opportunity (although these were added much later after the poll started)
* ZERO percent support the Closed season in spring


Clearly, there is a desire for more fishing opportunity, so after the April DNR meeting, as I understand it, Dan will let us know if there are options, and if we can help. Thanks for joining in. Your opinion is extremely important.



Data based off snap shot as of 3/27 12 pm (49) persons:

Not Change  2 (4.1%)
Be C&IR Feb 16. - day before memorial day; Possession is  is Memorial day - Feb. 15  7 (14.3%)
Be C&IR Jan 1 - Day before Memorial Day; Season is  Memorial Day - Dec 31  14 (28.6%)
Have no season - open all year  18 (36.7%)
$30 C&DR permit, all year, Harvest season remains the same   6 (12.2%)
C&IR Jan 1- mar 15; closed til day before memorial day, possession rest of season  0 (0%)
$15 C&IR permit, all year, possession starts memorial day - Jan 1  2 (4.1%
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: thedude on March 27, 2012, 12:43:57 PM
i'm for year-round open season, i however think that a C&DR is the most ideal option from a conservation perspective as well as from an accessibility one.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: 1javelin on March 27, 2012, 04:46:37 PM
There are several prominent wildlife programs based in the state of Michigan, with big enough pocketbooks to support some of this research.  Maybe someone should mention this kind of a study to them...

I happen to be for an open season all year.  People won't fish when it's cold, raining, whatever may be the case, but those of us willing to rbave the elements and spend the money to exercise our rights should be given the opportunity until it's proven detrimental. 

1jav
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on March 27, 2012, 05:55:59 PM
Really, truly, there have been plenty of studies already done including in Michigan regarding bass seasons. The people in that line of work know it too. There are a number of things that can be studied with a better use of money and resources like fish diseases, maybe the effect of aquatic plant treatment levels on fish types and populations, the effects of forage and/or exotics on fish and populations. Plenty.

There are always localized things to address for specific lake and river issues too. We have so much water in Michigan, there's probably plenty to do with specific local waters that have things like stunted fish, slow-growing fish, populations imbalances, etc - not just bass of course. Bass pretty much take care of themselves most of the time, except maybe when people do things like take out all the cover or pollute the water.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Waterfoul on March 27, 2012, 08:00:09 PM
I think I said this before... I don't remember.  Open season all year long, that's how I feel.   ;D
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Waterfoul on March 27, 2012, 08:30:23 PM
If you read mulitple fishing sites these days you will find this same poll (slightly modified) on another site.  As I'm typing this here are the results there after 66 votes there:

Open season all year:  22 votes.  33%
Catch and Release Feb. 15th to Saturday before Memorial Day:  9 votes 13%
Catch and Release Jan. 1st to Saturday before Memorial Day:  20 votes 30%
Keep it the same as it is now:  15 votes 23%

The other site is not dedicated to bass like this one is, so there are a lot of multi-species fishermen, once/twice a year fishermen, etc...

But as you can see the highest percentage of people still want no closed season, and a whopping 77% are in favor of a change in the current regulations.  It also shows that dedicated bass fishermen (which many of us are on this site) greatly favor no closed season.  44 out of a total of 118 for about 35%.  101 out of 118 people favor change from the current regulations.  That's a HUGE 85%. 

I think the numbers speak for themselves:

We need a change in Michigan.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: bigjc on March 27, 2012, 08:52:38 PM
Quote from: djkimmel on March 25, 2012, 05:01:29 PM
why really do we not allow anglers to legally fish bass for almost 4 months?


Because the MDNR is operated by S#!&heads, obviously!!!  There can be no other answer.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on March 28, 2012, 03:16:57 AM
Quote from: bigjc on March 27, 2012, 08:52:38 PM
Quote from: djkimmel on March 25, 2012, 05:01:29 PM
why really do we not allow anglers to legally fish bass for almost 4 months?


Because the MDNR is operated by S#!&heads, obviously!!!  There can be no other answer.

I don't think that is true. I may have felt that way at times about 2 or maybe 3 particular people in the process last time several years ago, but the people have changed (reassignment, retirement, paradigm shift) and their philosophy seems to be evolving faster now.

What I really have been waiting for all these years is for 'the public' to catch up too. Look at what Waterfoul posted! That is a MAJOR change that has been many, many years in the making. Getting more regular anglers and people to realize the bass can take care of themselves if we keep the water clean and don't wreck all the habitat. Getting regular people to believe that if you want to fish for bass just about anytime, you can do it. It's okay. Bass can take it. You can enjoy your fishing and not feel like you're doing something wrong.

I strongly felt the last time that we were much farther along the bass fishing attitude change meter with the general angler than a few people in the MDNR did. I was going by the shifts on the other online forums. Sure, some where fighting hard, but I kept seeing more stop fighting, and many even come over to the 'fish for bass more often' side. They were listening and they were truly examining their own inner reasons for being against the change.

It really wasn't until the state survey results came out that my feelings were vindicated. Maybe even in a bigger way than I hoped? I'm not sure how much of me wanted it to be as big a shift as I hoped verses how much of me really believed the shift was that big. Regardless, the survey was the game changer because so many regular anglers said, 'yes, we want to fish more for bass.'

The next step I felt was just as necessary and that was to allow a few seasons of bass fishing to convince some of the entrenched against change to see the bass weren't all wiped out and more importantly, for the anxious 'what if we're wrong crowd' to see the same thing. For some people, we could talk about the need for more studies and how many seasons before we're sure for another 20 years but I really have felt it would take 5 years or less before enough additional people finally realize that all those studies and all those other state fisheries people really do know what they're doing.

So, the real questions are: 1) has it been long enough to swing a significant chunk - increase - of regular anglers to the truth - that bass seasons have been proven to be ineffective in protecting bass populations anywhere? - Waterfoul's post is a small but good news example of what I've been waiting to see; and 2) What percentage of all anglers swung over to the scientific truth  or just want to fish more side of bass management is enough to get us how far without having another 2 year battle?

I think the answer to #1 is yes, it has been long enough for a very good number of anglers whether they believe science or just now feel 'what the heck - bass fishing is pretty good and I'd like more opportunity to do it.'

It's still the answer to #2 that I don't have a good handle on. If #1 ends up being kind of a landslide... well, that is too exciting to hope for... but if there are still enough anxious or just plain 'we shouldn't change anything to be safe' people out there to add to the riparians who never want more people on 'their' lake and the anglers who will always voice concerns about their other 'only fish they care about' being impacted by a change in the bass season (I'm calling it the fabled poacher syndrome from now on) - especially the organized groups, then we could fall short of any significant change without another battle.

I actually have a really good feeling that we will get one change almost for sure. Maybe next year, possibly the following year. The only thing that would probably kill it would be dedicated bass anglers themselves getting cold feet and fighting it. It might not seem like much but I take anything when I look back at 20-some years of almost no progress before the last change. I will say what that one thing is after the meeting because I don't want anymore people getting more worked up early again before there's any real dialog. I keep thinking we could kill some of our chances before we even get started if we're not careful enough.

Of course, I'm hoping for more. I do like what I'm seeing with the attitude of many anglers on this site, on other sites, who I talk to at the outdoor shows, at the boat ramps and wherever else I run into them. So many more anglers just want to fish. They need to fish. That is good.

Keep telling your family, friends, neighbors, strangers (a stranger is just a friend you haven't met yet) that most states don't have a closed bass season because all of the studies ever done on bass anywhere including in Michigan show that a closed bass season is an ineffective bass management tool. The 14 inch size limit increase -that was a great and effective management method for our Michigan bass. Tell them that many of us want to legally fish for bass more often and that you'd appreciate their support. You can even tell them the last surveys showed something like 80% of bass anglers already voluntarily release their bass anyway. We just want to be able to do that legally whenever we can get out.

It's not important to feel that the MDNR doesn't want us to fish. What is important is that the MDNR needs to hear from lots of people that people want to fish more for bass or have more opportunity to fish for bass when they want to. Things like that make a difference. Not always right away. But over time, yes, definitely.

Truly, the more people tell the MDNR they want more bass fishing, the closer we can get to a lot more legal bass fishing. Maybe without a long, drawn out affair even. That would be nice for lots of people.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: flipin31 on March 29, 2012, 07:02:19 PM
Catch and delay release all year would be awesome.  Makes me sick when I see someone keep a bass to eat it,  I just want to yell out and tell them that blugills taste so much better.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: bigjc on March 29, 2012, 08:57:47 PM
My problem with the MDNR and many other government agencies is this..."they only get their authority from "we the people," and yet they somehow become Nazis that think it is their role to push some agenda down our throats.  Close bass season is retarded.  There is no example of its effectiveness.  Change doesn't need to take decades, either.

"Give me liberty or give me death."

Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on March 30, 2012, 01:23:02 AM
They're just listening to the wrong people (or maybe they're just hearing voices?? ;D ). We will have to make our voices heard more and especially better. Soon. Give me April so I can get a better idea where it appears we are at. Other people are already calling, writing letters and email, and talking to whomever they know in some position of authority.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: 1javelin on March 30, 2012, 08:19:07 AM
Quote from: bigjc on March 29, 2012, 08:57:47 PM
My problem with the MDNR and many other government agencies is this..."they only get their authority from "we the people," and yet they somehow become Nazis that think it is their role to push some agenda down our throats.  Close bass season is retarded.  There is no example of its effectiveness.  Change doesn't need to take decades, either.

"Give me liberty or give me death."



I understand your emotions, because I sometimes feel that way too.  But it's the same sentiment you feel when your boss tells you that you will now be working 5 days for 8 hours instead of 4 days at 10 hours.  You don't want it to happen because it affects you negatively, he though has done the work and run the figures to know what is going to work best in the long run.  In this case it's based on history and not on scientific proof, but that's how a lot of old programs are done as well.  The guys behind these rules don't want to make a mistake and risk the backlash of it, even though it's proven not to have a negative effect.  Get some guys like Dan together that have put in the leg work and face time and book (research) reading time and we can get it changed.  Talk with your anger and they'll only do what every one of us would do, fight back.

1jav
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: thedude on March 30, 2012, 08:54:53 AM
Quote from: 1javelin on March 30, 2012, 08:19:07 AM
Quote from: bigjc on March 29, 2012, 08:57:47 PM
My problem with the MDNR and many other government agencies is this..."they only get their authority from "we the people," and yet they somehow become Nazis that think it is their role to push some agenda down our throats.  Close bass season is retarded.  There is no example of its effectiveness.  Change doesn't need to take decades, either.

"Give me liberty or give me death."



I understand your emotions, because I sometimes feel that way too.  But it's the same sentiment you feel when your boss tells you that you will now be working 5 days for 8 hours instead of 4 days at 10 hours.  You don't want it to happen because it affects you negatively, he though has done the work and run the figures to know what is going to work best in the long run.  In this case it's based on history and not on scientific proof, but that's how a lot of old programs are done as well.  The guys behind these rules don't want to make a mistake and risk the backlash of it, even though it's proven not to have a negative effect.  Get some guys like Dan together that have put in the leg work and face time and book (research) reading time and we can get it changed.  Talk with your anger and they'll only do what every one of us would do, fight back.

1jav

well, not really - you work for your boss, in terms of gov't *we* are supposed to be the boss.  If everyone in america stood up and voted to dump toxic waste into lake michigan, then i would expect our govt to warn us but do it anyway... that's kind of the point.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Jmcfarland on March 30, 2012, 10:21:07 AM
I'm with flipin31. I saw a guy keep a 5lb largie and kill it in the middle of August on Fletcher Floodwaters. He didn't say anything about mounting it (which is the only half way logical thing I can see keeping that for). He took it back to the campground and was cleaning it when I seen him. At least it got cleaned. I don't know how you could stand to eat it. 85 degree water and the middle of summer? I could have cut off a stump,ground up some seaweed and used mud for a sauce and had the same tasting meal. Did I mention he had a nice mess of bluegill on top of this. Some peoples kids.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on March 30, 2012, 03:07:56 PM
Some people, even some dedicated bass anglers, do tell me they like the taste of bass. I'm not a big fish eater but I do prefer the taste of walleye, perch and other panfish when I do. Never like pike much but I know a number of people who love the taste of pike.

I have nothing at all against people who legally keep fish they catch that they will eat and not waste. That is their right and we have regulations to monitor that in place. I happen to think smaller fish taste better than large ones but that isn't the same for everyone. Some fish in some lakes need to be culled out. There are a few studies about catch and release going to far... but that is definitely a topic for another day and purpose.

On some lakes, I do believe it would be better to release the larger bass, but I rarely say something about that to someone who is exercising their legal rights. How many people actually do that? How many are too much? That is different for every lake. I figure the best I can do is mention on here once in a while that it may help make for better fishing for everyone to keep the smaller bass and release the big ones. It does have a slow building effect overall.

Catch and release of bass has really grown in Michigan to a the point where the majority of all bass anglers report that they practice it. That is a pretty good deal.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Waterfoul on March 30, 2012, 10:53:25 PM
Great point Dan.  I just want to be able to practice catch and release ALL year!   ;D
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Waterfoul on April 12, 2012, 09:02:29 AM
The results on the "other" site that this poll is on:

70.99% of all people who have voted as of today believe there should be a change to the regs. Only 29.01% believe it should stay the same as it is today.  I'd call that an overwhelming majority in favor of change.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on April 12, 2012, 02:10:58 PM
If it is that big ole site I used to hang out on, those are pretty impressive numbers compared to the 'fight' I had on there the last time we worked on changing the season. 'Debates' were intense is one way to put it.

I really do think the new season has rolled over quite a few people who held out before for less than clear or reasonable reasons. That's what I'm betting on anyway.

I don't have the time for lots of debate this time so I'm avoiding getting in on this on other websites. I don't think it is real necessary. At least not yet.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Waterfoul on April 12, 2012, 07:19:18 PM
That's the site Dan.  I'm impressed with the numbers as well.  That site has a lot of "multi-species" or non-bass fisherman on it and I'm sure those guys (some of whom I know)  are skewing the results a bit too.  Probably closer to 80-85% of the bass fishermen there are in favor of change.  You may not frequent the site very often but you can use these results along with the results on GLB to impress the decision makers in the DNR.  The vast majority of fishermen in Michigan are in favor of a change to the bass season.  Of that majority the highest % is for NO closed season at all.  Yes!  ;D
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on April 13, 2012, 09:06:21 PM
That is impressive. I would imagine it has already been noted but I will definitely point out any indications of large numbers of anglers wanting more bass fishing because that is what the MDNR needs to see and hear to feel like a change will be a good thing for them.

What a fight they gave me on that site for a while. They even sicked the then owner on me but they weren't arguing from knowledge and the support increased for more bass fishing even on that site at that time. I did receive lots of nice PM's and email from their members during that time.

I just don't have time to hang out on a bunch of websites. I used to get messages from some of the mods over there about wayward bass anglers who needed my help. That was actually nice of them. Hasn't happened in quite a while. I think the crowd has evolved over there some from when I used to be on there from what I see and hear.

If you see any other polls on any other websites, send me a message about them so I can take a look. I don't want to start any this time and get into a bunch of debate like last time. I just don't think it is necessary now and I want to conserve time.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Mojo on April 15, 2012, 01:45:22 PM
Dan, your own site shows 97% want a change. I'm holding with my Mojo proposal through the end of May. If we don't hear anything, I hope to begin working with my local state rep to build a bill for 2014 fishing season.

It's time to open the season to allow spring bass fishing.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Skulley on April 15, 2012, 05:11:07 PM
Quote from: Mojo on April 15, 2012, 01:45:22 PM
Dan, your own site shows 97% want a change. I'm holding with my Mojo proposal through the end of May. If we don't hear anything, I hope to begin working with my local state rep to build a bill for 2014 fishing season.

It's time to open the season to allow spring bass fishing.

Hear, Hear.  I am already working on mine.


BD                                     ;D
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: flipin31 on May 03, 2012, 07:16:09 PM
Hey Dan did you have your metting yet?  If so how did it go?
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: ROI Outdoors on May 03, 2012, 08:49:30 PM
Quote from: flipin31 on May 03, 2012, 07:16:09 PM
Hey Dan did you have your metting yet?  If so how did it go?


I don't think it was very awesome.......
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on May 03, 2012, 10:45:44 PM
I went to a meeting. I was a guest with someone I'm working on a project with. I wasn't sure as a guest what I was allowed to do since you normally can only ask questions if you are an appointed member of these citizen advisory committees. I'm still thinking about what to say about it publicly. There's not much to say yet.

I'm hoping for a follow up discussion with MDNR Fisheries in a few weeks. That was the end result of some of the discussion at the meeting on bass and seasons.

There were many people there from the MDNR including fisheries, wildlife and parks and rec. There were a couple people there for part of the meeting from the ODNR including the top Lake Erie fish biologist and their new fisheries chief. They left before the discussion about the Lake St. Clair bass season. There were many people there from various fishing and outdoor groups. Paul Sacks was there for the B.A.S.S. Federation Nation. He is a member of the committee.

Lots of topics covered. I have 9 pages of notes mostly on other specific topics. Some of that may interest some of you so I will share if I can get to it. I've been talking to some business people about the meeting, getting advice, things like that.

I did get to speak some during the discussion about the Lake St. Clair bass season. The committee chair said I could. For now, the only helpful thing to report is that the acting MDNR fisheries chief said he would contact Paul Sacks and I in 2 to 3 weeks to discuss. He took my email address. They are holding statewide meetings right now on pike and muskie regulations and he said that is keeping their limited staff (budget cuts) very busy already. I'll let everyone know if and when we have this discussion.

I talked to Dave Reault for TBF and got his input. I will talk to Paul to get a better idea what the federation nation is looking for. And then, hopefully we have this next discussion.

I do know that we are still pursuing more major fishing tournaments for Lake St. Clair as one part of an overall effort to get more people to think of all the great things that set of waters has to offer the outdoors person.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Skulley on May 04, 2012, 10:18:07 AM
Thanks DK. Let me know if there is any way I can pitch in to help.


BD.                       ;D
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Waterfoul on May 04, 2012, 09:19:30 PM
I still don't get why there would be any real opposition to opening the season up.  They do nothing to protect bass now, other states and some of their own studies have proven there is no adverse effect to fishing for them all year long, and it would do a lot of good for the economy.  It's the "old way" of thinking and the lack of "listening to all the data" that keeps it closed.

I would like to know the exact reasons why the MDNR has ANY issue with opening the season.  My bet is it is based on politics just like our current bass season.  Sad for sure.  Especially after you look at the data from the two recent polls on the two biggest fishing websites in the state about what the fishing public would like to see.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: ROI Outdoors on May 04, 2012, 09:42:02 PM
Quote from: Waterfoul on May 04, 2012, 09:19:30 PM
I still don't get why there would be any real opposition to opening the season up.  They do nothing to protect bass now, other states and some of their own studies have proven there is no adverse effect to fishing for them all year long, and it would do a lot of good for the economy.  It's the "old way" of thinking and the lack of "listening to all the data" that keeps it closed.

I would like to know the exact reasons why the MDNR has ANY issue with opening the season.  My bet is it is based on politics just like our current bass season.  Sad for sure.  Especially after you look at the data from the two recent polls on the two biggest fishing websites in the state about what the fishing public would like to see.

They aren't to fond of tourney's........
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on May 05, 2012, 12:32:59 AM
Ding ding ding ding ding... I think we might have our winner. Working on it. Trying to balance what to do next between a number of parties. Studies, facts, figures, all that doesn't mean much to some people depending upon what the real issues are. I'm not just talking about the MDNR there. I usually never am - there's lake associations, riparians, naturalists, environmentalists, sentimentalists, wilderness people, non-anglers, animal lovers, you name it. Depending upon someone's beliefs, quite a few different things can entrench them that have nothing to do with science, getting people into fishing and the economy.

The good news is: Bass anglers want to fish. More than enough know we could. I've mentioned the patience is low thing already to some people. There are people and groups who desperately need more anglers fishing and the MDNR is one of them. It is just a matter of figuring out the easiest path (if there ever is such a thing when dealing with change) through the real obstacles and getting on that path.

I haven't figured out that path yet. Right now, considering the different parties involved and the different comfort levels, I'm still letting things unfold a little more while I gather information and involved parties. We have to see if we can get a pretty strong consensus and what that would be. Then, how close is it to the path and how do we get off the path we're on now and onto the path that will actually work.

Who knows? Maybe the right people will come around? Maybe the right people will push the right buttons and remove an obstacle or two? Maybe the obstacles aren't even really there? Still lots of possibilities. I know I don't have time or the free stress for another big fight. There will have to be another way this time.

I'm open to any ideas. I don't need studies. They are already out there for people willing to look at them. Obviously, to any intelligent person there are reasons why statewide closed seasons for game fish are rare in this country. I will have plenty of information on how much competitive fishing can bring into communities and I'm gathering the latest information on things that get more people to fish and buy fishing licenses, especially youth.

This is all time-consuming and I have to work on websites so I can pay bills. Since some people may not care about this type of information anyway and it might not be needed depending upon how things go in the next few weeks with several possibilities, I can only put so much time into it. The ideas I need are more about influence. Maybe connections to reasonable people in leadership positions. Business people who are open to information about how they can bring more tourism into their communities by having more fishing - a more welcoming attitude to all anglers who will boost tourism directly and indirectly through drawing more and wider attention to their local natural resources. Those should be helpful.

I think that may be the path to getting some things fixed. When you involve new people who are less familiar with certain specifics of fishing, there's a learning curve though too. Time to build a relationship. I've started on that in a few different directions but anyone can help in this area.

Some of you have stated in the past that you are friends with or have good connections to leadership type people in Michigan. If you do, please send me some information on who, how to contact them and if you know if they know anything about the modern fishing scene. That might become helpful. It usually doesn't hurt to have friends in high places. We might not need it but you never know.

And as I've always told you, it never hurts to be nice and courteous to the people you meet in the outdoors. Say hi. Talk to them about what you're doing. The more people know about each other, what they do and why they do it, the less it becomes scary change. I had a talk earlier today with one of my neighbors who has never fished a tournament in his long life yet he asked me why Michigan doesn't promote more big tournaments. He said, 'don't they know they bring in a lot of money into the economy, money that helps everyone in the economy?' I replied, 'I guess we haven't taught them enough yet. But I'm working on it.'

You all keep working on it too. Don't butt heads with people who won't listen. I did way too much of that 7-8 years ago. Wish I had all that time back... I even did a little bit of it the other day. It really is a waste of time. There are receptive people out there who are open to 'new' ideas and changing times. I recently did a round-about tour of various Michigan fishing forums and it reminded me how much anglers and hunters fight amongst themselves. We really need to start putting some effort into reducing that. Our natural resources really need us.

Find receptive people and help them understand. We're all anglers who care about the outdoors and the environment. We have more in common than we have different. We need to all (all anglers, all types of anglers) be working together to figure out if there are ways to get more people out fishing. If you aren't ever involved in any youth fishing projects, make a pledge to help out at least one this year. I know many of you do, but we can do more because we're more organized and communicate more with each other. When you do something to get youth or new anglers out, tell people about. You can pass the idea along that way. It's too easy to 'get busy' and not do anything. We can't afford too much of that.

I hope I have something more specific to share in a few weeks. I hope I can resist the urge to butt heads. It really is a waste of valuable time. I've spent the last few days talking about that to smart people who are equally invested in the  outdoors in many different ways to figure out how.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Waterfoul on May 05, 2012, 09:04:30 AM
Well, as the manager of a business that depends 100% on the boaters in this state actually USING their boats... a longer season would definitely help my bottom line.  We have 14 stores in Michigan alone and they would ALL benefit from the longer season.  Maybe not right away, but in the long run it would be good for all 14 stores for sure.

I'm sure the same can be said of any business that depends on the boating public and their needs.  Bait shops, local gas stations, local restaurants, sporting good stores, etc...

When I travel I often look for local restaurants to eat in instead of fast foods, buy gas for the boat when I get there instead of trailering all that weight.  I shop in local bait stores.  Overall,  I like to spend local.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: bigmojet on May 05, 2012, 10:14:11 AM
I work for a company that owns 100 gas stations as well as wholesale fuel to another 100+ stations and marinas from SW Michigan all the way to the Soo in the UP.

Most of our stations we own/service are in smaller towns and we couldnt survive on just the locals. We rely on tourism and the people who head north to recreate on the lakes,rivers and land in these areas.

The March and April periods are usually the lulls in business for our company as we are between snow/winter sports and the anticipation of spring sports and people coming up north to open cottages.

This was a rare winter early spring with the warm temps but I guarantee if we had an open bass season we would have had more traffic in the north.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on May 05, 2012, 10:20:09 PM
These are the exact kinds of messages I need help getting to the right ears. Working on that too. I cannot believe when someone tries to tell me a longer bass season won't mean much of a difference for our economy, or worse, that they don't care! I think anyone in their right mind cares about this. I know I do!

More opportunity often does mean more fishing, more anglers, more license sales, more tourism dollars into an economy that needs it. Studies have shown that the closer you get to summer before many people fish for the first time, especially parents, the more likely they are to get busy with the kids out of school, other things and just decide 'heck, summers already part way over I'll just skip buying a license this year and try again next year.' The kids play their sports, video games, etc. and no one takes them fishing. Another year goes by for those families with no fishing. Eventually, they just stop thinking about it.

I have absolutely no doubt that many more people would have gone fishing during that amazing warm spell if it had been legal to fish for the most popular game fish in Michigan - the bass. That first warm spell movement of bass is one of the best times to catch a real trophy. Gary Towns of the MDNR used to talk to me about this very topic in the good old days. He would tell me about all the big bass they were catching in shallow nets meant for prespawn muskies on a brood lake in Southern Michigan. As a young bass angler, I found it so interesting to hear a Michigan fisheries biologist verify with enthusiasm the then not so commonly covered subject of big bass moving super shallow during the very first warm spell at ice out even on Michigan lakes!

People used to always complain about how those 'southern' bass magazines only covered subjects that didn't pertain to bass 'up north.' I was already starting to see with my own observations that this wasn't really true. These particular discussions with Gary Towns were some of my earliest found information helping to confirm my own suspicions - a bass is a bass is a bass. There might be some differences sure, but there was more in common. If KVD hasn't proved that to the world by now, I don't know what will.

I used to start fishing Michigan every year near the end of March, beginning of April. Quit doing that when we finally got a partial catch and release season as a gesture of goodwill (I was tired of 'guilt by bass boat' too no matter what I was fishing for). If it was legal to bass fish whenever this first warm spell hits, how many more people would have bought a fishing license and escaped cabin fever with some bonus fishing!?! And of these additional anglers, how many might be more likely to get their kids out fishing if they bought their fishing license early? I'm pretty confident it is more than none.

Right now, we have none. We have the people who will go fishing no matter what each year, and we have all the other people who would like to go fishing but choose to follow the law and the people who don't think about fishing much until they get caught up in summer and maybe choose fishing, maybe choose baseball, golf, soccer, swimming, whatever instead. We all (anglers, MDNR, outdoors business, tourism, natural resources - our true future) need more. The bass anglers need more. The businesses and economy need more. The MDNR needs more. The future of fishing needs more. Not the same. The same is 4% decline in Michigan fishing license sales each year recently! 30% less Michigan anglers / fishing licenses sold now compared to only a dozen years ago! More. We need more.

We cannot afford the same. Which is actually less (see above). I hope the right people figure this out pretty soon.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: jgip087 on May 09, 2012, 02:37:06 PM
If the DNR used proven research then we would have an open season all year.  The thing that effects fish populations is allowing for lakes to be chemically treated for weed kills. Whenever this happens, the oxygen level of a lake is depleted (to the point where if entire lakes are treated at once you would see massive fish die offs) and cover is lost that is crucial for forage development and sustainability.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Waterfoul on May 09, 2012, 02:47:07 PM
You know Dan... it still baffles me that our "educated" leaders and politicians can't see the forrest for the trees.  So much good information, so much being ignored.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: thedude on May 09, 2012, 04:02:18 PM
Another good question to ask the DNR would be in regards to the blatant disregard by a high number of individuals to the current catch & release dates.  Most of the people who 'fish-early' are in every other aspect model citizens (at least in the DNRs eyes). We're not harvesting and keeping tons of fish, not poaching for the freezer or over-limiting..... we follow boating laws and buy licenses EVERY year, etc.  Seems like the laws have taken a stance that really just takes an otherwise law abiding and conscientious angler and turns them into an outlaw for causing no actual harm to anything.   

What do "bass" really cost the DNR? There's no stocking, no special enforcement and many anglers don't even keep the fish. This isn't put-and-take fishing like salmon, trout, musky and walleye - bass are prolific with no help from the DNR at all (ie at the lowest cost to the DNR possible for a game fish). I can't imagine the DNR wants to ban or fine the guy that comes back year after year to buy a license just to fish for a species that is self-maintaining.

As a tangent - What the h*** is up with them doing surveys on pike? Seriously.... its just a kick in the nuts that pike are getting more attention than this. We'll probably see a push for better carp regs next.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Genie on May 09, 2012, 04:07:33 PM
thedude for president!
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: thedude on May 09, 2012, 04:34:54 PM
i could finally enact "dude doctrine" - it's long and complicated, but the gist of it is mandatory sterilization for a whole lot of people.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Skulley on May 24, 2012, 09:28:10 AM
Quote from: thedude on May 09, 2012, 04:34:54 PM
i could finally enact "dude doctrine" - it's long and complicated, but the gist of it is mandatory sterilization for a whole lot of people.

We all probably know someone that we think fits the "dude doctrine".        8)




BD.                        ;D
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on May 25, 2012, 12:55:49 AM
The problem with those kinds of policies is sometimes the people on your list have you on their list. What if their list goes first? It can get real ugly.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Mojo on May 26, 2012, 11:50:08 AM
Well folks, since I last checked in we have had 23 more voters. Here is where we stand as of memorial day, the official opening day of bass fishing season, and we have the data the speak to how the bass fishing community feels. These are not my words, but yours as a community:

* A super majority - over 90% of bass fishermen in Michigan would like to see the rules change to allow some form of C&R season in the spring. 21% of those, are even willing to pay for it.

* Of the 91%, 54% believe that allowing the bass to be removed from their beds does not have an effect on overall bass population while 46% believe some restriction should be in place to keep the bass on their beds.


Now looking at this split tells me a few things. First the overall education of bass fishermen, and how they view their quarry, has rapidly increased.

It also shows that the voice of a few is not in control of the minds of many. (happens all the time in every facet of work, government, and recreation).

It shows that completely removing regulation is not going to make 50% of the fishermen happy, but allowing some form of C&R all season will make over 90% of them happy.

Because it is now approaching June, this will quiet down, however, its time to take this data and proceed to the next step and draft a proposal.


Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: jmoore9543 on September 17, 2012, 04:20:45 PM
It is probably a good time to get this subject going again. Seems everyone forgets about this until they can't fish in the spring. What can we do this winter to get this going?
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on September 17, 2012, 09:05:08 PM
Tell your friends, family, co-workers, other anglers, anyone who might be willing to listen that the existing decades of study do not support the necessity of a closed season for bass. That a closed season just takes away fishing opportunity from anglers like you who want to fish whenever they can. That allowing more fishing would not harm the bass and would help the economy.

Lots of people need to know that lots of other people want to go fishing. You could tell your elected officials too - in writing is best. If they hear it fairly often, it may smooth the path out for people who will have to write the papers and go to all the 'required' meetings to try to bring our old-fashioned, overly conservative ways into the light of the modern era.

If someone tries to argue with you about their grampa or their brother's sister-in-law's uncle's dog trainer's friend told them our season is why bass fishing is so good here mention that 44 states out of 49 don't have a statewide closed bass season and that people have been fishing for bass out of season by accident and on purpose for over 30 in Michigan with no change to our bass season prior to the last catch and release change, yet our bass fishing got a whole lot better when we went to the 14 inch limit not because of, or in spite of any season change. Cleaner water, clearer water (partly due to regulation and partly due to invasives) also occurred during the period our bass fishing has gotten a lot better.

The season has not changed in 40 years other than they gave us a few more weeks catch and release bass fishing. Yet these are the good ole days of bass fishing! There is no correlation to better bass fishing statewide and at population levels due to our closed season but there are correlations to the improved water quality and the change to the 14 inch limit. That was the only correlation the Michigan research biologist who did the last bass season study told me they could make.

I also know there are studies that state closed season are generally only really successful at taking away fishing opportunity not improved fishing, especially for bass. Which is just one of many reasons 44 states out of 49 do not have a statewide closed bass season including Ohio, Indiana, Pennsylvania and New York. The last bastions of fear of change are Michigan, Wisconsin (who actually allows catch in keep in one part of the state before the bass start spawning because the people in that part of the state consider bass a nuisance species), Minnesota, Maine and Ontario. There are other Canadian provinces with some good bass fishing and closures, but our problem rests on the above states and the one province as the reason we 'have to be different.' Fear of change and dislike of bass tournaments are the bulk of the real issue, not biology or studies.

So get the word out. We need people telling their local MDNR, their state elected officials and especially every Michigan citizen who might care that we are tired of waiting and we want to bass fish all year like pretty much all of the rest of the country. Getting lots of people to think more bass fishing is okay is what gave us the extra few weeks of fishing last time. I can't stress that part enough.

Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Waterfoul on September 18, 2012, 11:46:31 AM
It just dawned on me that Representitive Tom Hooker is an old teacher and wrestling coach of mine that I keep in touch with... I have one of his re-election signs in my front yard as a matter of fact.  WHEN he gets re-elected I'll bring this up to him.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on September 19, 2012, 12:08:46 AM
Ask him if he is on board now and if he promises he is, help him get re-elected! ;D
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Waterfoul on September 19, 2012, 10:05:36 AM
He's an outdoorsman... probably not as much now as before he became a Rep, but I'm sure he'd be onboard.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Rangerman on December 02, 2012, 10:29:54 AM
Well guys not being a resident of the Great State of MI, here my two cents anyhow :D If that can't work do a Catch and Release for bass all year, and a very very short keep em season. Most bass fishermen release there fish or in some case, bag em, weigh em pay em and then release :D Increasing fees does nothing but give more of you hard earned money to DNR to buy more No Power Loading Signs :D I purchase a Non Resident every year to fish most times 12 days a year, plus the DNR Ramp use permit, so I do have a dog in the fight. Believe me year long catch and release or delayed release works here in the South it has worked since the first fishing reg put in place. I do wish we had a pure catch and release during the summer months due to it's hard to keep the bass alive long days for a tournament weight in, but our fishermen have adapted to over come this by carring 20-40 lb of ice in sealed bags in the live well. All the years I have fished MI I just catch em and some case weigh em in the boat and release em on the spot. Y'all got a great bass fishery don't over regulate it. Hope to be back on Saint Clair again for a few weeks in the catch and release season.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: LennyB on December 02, 2012, 07:57:59 PM
Catch and instant release open year round.

Catch and delayed release/kill from after the spawn (July 1st to March 1st).
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Waterfoul on December 02, 2012, 09:17:48 PM
Quote from: MBFT on December 02, 2012, 07:57:59 PM
Catch and instant release open year round.

Catch and delayed release/kill from after the spawn (July 1st to March 1st).

I don't believe that was one of the choices in the poll.  Besides, what you propose would not be economicaly feasable.  The state would lose a LOT of money from out of state anglers and the many, many tournaments that are run in the month of June.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on December 03, 2012, 02:13:43 AM
It never hurts to have people share their opinions.

Probably thanks to In-Fisherman and a few other sources such as dedicated ice anglers, there was also a building concern that allowing people to keep, or even catch bass during the winter would also be detrimental. Not much study-wise to back that up other than some concern in Minnesota about one river smallmouth study that stated a lot of bass were 'vulnerable' because they stacked up in one hole in the river.

Minnesota basically dropped catch and keep for smallmouth bass statewide to catch and release after early September because of that 'concern.' I talked to one of the biologists involved in that about how they came to that decision. I'm not a fan of taking away any opportunity in fishing if there isn't real good, strong evidence, preferably proof, that it is necessary, yet Minnesota and Ohio both have done that.

Something is wrong. We better do something. That was the real short version of how it happened in Ohio. What is the good of doing something if you have no idea if it will accomplish the reason you say you are doing it. Of course, big deal because all it did was kill a very good popular bass tournament season stretch there. No loss. Other than to the businesses that were making money (and providing jobs) that lost all that additional revenue. And maybe more fishing license sale loss due to less reasons for people to buy them... Other than that... who cares.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: LennyB on December 03, 2012, 02:27:51 AM
I'm all for whats "best for the fishery" and keeping it healthy for all to enjoy, tournament and non-tournament folks alike. As far as the state making money, they have plenty of ways to do that.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on December 05, 2012, 06:37:50 PM
Definitely what is best for the fishery, any fishery, is getting more people into fishing, buying fishing licenses. Anglers and hunters pretty always do more for wildlife than anyone else. Especially need more anglers in Michigan where fishing license sales are down 30% over the past dozen years. There's not much left of our MDNR and I don't see that changing a lot anytime soon the way things are being done so far.

Tournament fishing is one of the few growth areas in fishing. Shame a few Northern states that need angler growth are basically anti-bass tournament, even when it involves programs like college and high school fishing. Hurts all of us when government decisions are made by things like 'fishing is meant to be a contemplative sport not competitive' rationale I hear.

What I've always thought is so great about fishing is that there are so many different ways to enjoy it that it can meet the expectations of a wide range of persons. As long as enough people and the MDNR are willing to realize that too. Within the law, there's no such thing as a more preferred 'type' of angler or more preferred 'type' of hunter. There's just anglers and hunters.

The outdoors is critical to Michigan's economy, especially our future economy. Anything, including bass tournaments, that adds to our natural resource economy is a good thing we need and can use as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on December 05, 2012, 07:46:30 PM
Quote from: MBFT on December 03, 2012, 02:27:51 AM
I'm all for whats "best for the fishery" and keeping it healthy for all to enjoy, tournament and non-tournament folks alike. As far as the state making money, they have plenty of ways to do that.

I see now that I was not clear enough about 'the state.' We may be talking two different things. What I am referring to is all the businesses and companies that rely partially or quite a bit on outdoors-related activities to be a successful business. Many of those companies are taking quite a beating in this economy and more so depending upon weather patterns (businesses that rely heavy on ice fishing) and decreased participation in the outdoors.

In the old federation, we actually surveyed this in the past - how much anglers were spending for practice and during the tournament for our bigger state events and the state championship. We also asked if the participant had previously fished the area, and if not, would they now plan on returning in the future - maybe how many times for how many days.

Both B.A.S.S. and FLW Outdoors have lots of information on this type of thing too. We found out that the average state championship (back when we drew 100+ boats like the national events do) was pumping ~$140,000 directly into the each local economy. We also found out that a good number of our anglers now intended to make X number of return fishing days to a new lake, even bringing other anglers along with them, and about how much additional money that meant down the road to the local economy.

There are also plenty of studies that demonstrate overall angler behavior as far why they are more likely to buy a fishing license in a particular year, or the reasons many of them decide to skip this year altogether. The MDNR has some of this same information.

There is also a company that specializes in providing detailed reports to many states about how to increase angler participation. These are often very big, long studies. I have read all of the public ones I can get my hands on. There are many similarities and some state/region specific differences.

When I talk about more large bass tournaments being good for Michigan, I am basing it on the data I have from our past surveys in Michigan, B.A.S.S. data, FLW Outdoors data, information contained in these studies from the specialty company, information contained in numerous studies done by various DNRs and citizen advisory groups AND the heads of recognized leadership companies in the industry who explain to me how fishing participation, or lack of fishing participation, from various angler types directly impacts the success of their business.

Frankly, these are incredibly tough times for a big chunk of the outdoors industry right now, from the local 'Ma and Pa' tackle shop to the biggest companies, and very tough from many DNRs, with the Michigan DNR right about leading the pack of the departments getting hit the hardest. ANYTHING that I feel positively impacts all of that and these parties is a good thing in my book. I definitely feel more bass tournaments positively impacts our Michigan economy, AND even our MDNR, whether or not they agree.

Our bass are fine. There's a ton of fishing opportunity, and not just in bass, being left on the table by incredibly out-dated thinking. I don't have much time to work on that right now, but the time I have to work against that is time well spent. As one Michigan outdoors business leader recently put it to me, 'this nonsense with some in the MDNR being anti-bass tournament is [bs] and I'm sick of it!' He wants to be successful in business and anything that makes that harder right now than it already is, is something that is broken and needs to be fixed.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on December 05, 2012, 07:54:43 PM
Unfortunately, the simple truth of our Michigan bass fishing season dilemma, besides the ever present fear of change, is that some key people are against adding more bass fishing simply because they don't want more bass tournaments, and they are willing to say just about anything to keep all bass anglers from getting more bass fishing just to try to stop anglers from being able to fish more bass tournaments even if that is what the anglers, who buy the licenses and the boat gas and the fishing tackle that makes their job possible in the first place, want to do.

Bass tournament anglers are real anglers, just like any other angler. The MDNR should be in the business of treating all anglers as important to their mission, not just the ones some of them like. They are in no position to be thinking things like this type of angler is desired, but this type isn't. Or this type of hunter is desired, but this type isn't. They are in the position that they need EVERY SINGLE angler and hunter they can get!
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Rangerman on December 13, 2012, 08:16:31 AM
Well Bass Tournament bring alot of money into the area and the local business. In turn creates jobs and pay more tax to the Great State. You guys got a great fishery and in favor of anything that protects it. Increasing fee's is not one of them. I you tuff enough to go out on the ice have at it :D, If you tuff enough to go out in 15-20 mph winds in freezing rain and snow, have at it. We don't need more laws just more ramp you can power load on,  :D :D Thats a joke guys. See y'all again in the spring of 13 during the C&R season.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on December 15, 2012, 01:52:43 AM
I'd like more ramps built 'right' too - not joking!
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Skulley on December 15, 2012, 11:24:06 AM
Quote from: djkimmel on December 15, 2012, 01:52:43 AM
I'd like more ramps built 'right' too - not joking!


I'll second that!!!!



BD.                      ;D
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: leo7477 on February 25, 2013, 01:37:34 PM
Any chance the bass season will be changed for 2013?
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Skulley on February 25, 2013, 01:48:43 PM
Probably not. The MDNR for some reason doesn't like bass fisherman. We do more for the resource and we are an excellent source off revenue for the state. Hopefully some day they will all figure it out.



BD.                                ;D
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Manxfishing on February 25, 2013, 07:10:16 PM
Quote from: UAWBigDog on February 25, 2013, 01:48:43 PM
Probably not. The MDNR for some reason doesn't like bass fisherman. We do more for the resource and we are an excellent source off revenue for the state. Hopefully some day they will all figure it out.

But they sure do love the invasive species
100 years ago there were no Kings, Coho or rainbow trout in the state

Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on February 25, 2013, 07:46:26 PM
The MDNR Fisheries Division told me last year there would be no more changes to fishing regulations in Michigan until 2015 no matter what.

That doesn't mean they get their way or that they don't change their mind.

I am hearing from more and more, and a broader range of people, businesses and government (local to state) who agree that people should just be able to fish whenever they want without worrying about technical issues, accusations and more time-wasting. People and business want more opportunity and less restrictions.

The MDNR is desperate for more anglers, especially youth. I'm hoping both needs collide to fix things with less of a headache and long, drawn out processes. A lot to ask for, but one can always hope.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on February 25, 2013, 08:05:23 PM
Quote from: leo7477 on February 25, 2013, 01:37:34 PM
Any chance the bass season will be changed for 2013?

A more direct answer, almost nothing changes that fast in government or things like the MDNR. Last time we changed the bass season, it took 2 years. It started from a wider divide than maybe it needs to start this time. Not sure.

If someone could spearhead a movement to start this change with some good organizational help and participation, maybe a year and a half this time depending upon timing.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: bassfan586 on March 10, 2013, 09:38:44 AM
I read somewhere that snyder wants to up the fees for the  hunting and fishing license.   $25 for all species with no option for non trout /salmon.  Well open up the closed bass season then.  Give us something.  Extend deer season too.  Anyone else read this?  They want to hire 60 more c.o's.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Got Fish?? on March 10, 2013, 11:21:40 AM
How about some more trash cans and a little more work done  on boat ramps
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on March 10, 2013, 01:22:40 PM
Yes - there's been some discussion about the license fees proposal in the Legislation board down below - http://www.greatlakesbass.com/forum/index.php?topic=16925.0
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: ROI Outdoors on April 21, 2013, 02:17:15 PM
With the Deputy Director of the MDNR saying he "thinks that bass tournaments would be a great way to increase our natural resource economy" shouldn't we work on solutions that best support that statement??

Bass, Walleye, and Pike season all opening on the same date (April 27th in 2013) is a reasonable solution that I do not think has been proposed......easy, simple, and economically driven.  Tourneys get another month, those who follow the C&R season can still do so, the walleye anglers won't oppose, the pike anglers will not oppose, local economies will greatly benefit, the MDNR will sell more licenses (out of state license purchases should significantly increase)......the majority wins out in this scenario.  Year-round C&R is great but for years like this what would it do to "increase our natural economy" - not much at all.  Year round C&R would be great but with it comes plenty of resistance from the pike and walleye community.....
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on April 21, 2013, 06:09:26 PM
Legal year-round bass fishing in Michigan has always been a personal priority of mine. There are a lot more bass anglers than tournament bass anglers so my priority is to get more bass anglers out fishing first because it is more doable right now with the time and support available. I believe the rest will come.

Anyone else is more than welcome to come up with their own proposal and pursue it. All it takes is time and determination. If you want something done you just have to be willing to work at it. That's how change happens.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: thedude on April 22, 2013, 10:02:15 AM
the april compromise is a good one. I think the DNR is only being nice to us because they want us to support the license increase. Thinking solely as a bass fisherman, the increase is obviously a total rip-off because we will see almost none of that money go toward bass management and all of it go to walleye, salmon and trout stocking programs and other "boutique" fisheries like muskie (ie - high management cost and statistically low angler participation).  Bass don't require much if any management other than basic harvest regulation - so very low cost.

An opportunity to ask for more and actually get it will probably not happen again in the next 20 years. I truly hope the TBF/Fed. Nation considers this before making the official proposals to the DNR.  This will be the only time you EVER have the upper hand. They need something from us.

Easy for me to be an armchair quarterback - i want to say i do appreciate the time and effort you've put into this dan - I would just hate to be this close and not maximize what could be offered.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Genie on April 22, 2013, 10:12:32 AM
Agreed - we might want to push for everything we can now as the wheels of changes are obviously slow turning.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on April 22, 2013, 03:55:50 PM
I told Matt at the meeting yesterday that I was already planning on bringing up the alternative of 'simplifying' the regulations by having regular bass open the same day as most trout, walleye and pike. I have had some nice contact from an non-tournament angler up North over the past couple weeks who suggested the same thing.

I also think that you may be surprised how many anglers, even on this website, who will not want that to happen. It isn't half on this website, but it isn't only 1 or 2 people either. I have been actively promoting the idea to government officials the past few weeks about helping attract more tournaments as a way to increase our natural resources economy and have definitely discussed our short, scientifically unnecessary bass season as a major limiting factor. I even talked to the Governor about this briefly Thursday. I work on this issue off and on all the time as a general rule, which is why I am usually branded as someone who just wants more opportunity to have more tournaments. Yes, I do. But #1 - primary - I want more fishing opportunity! Period!! The rest will happen on its own if that is what anglers want to do. I never can figure out why that isn't as apparent to other anglers and the MDNR as it is to me? People are going to do what people want to do.

I have to have an official position from the Michigan B.A.S.S. Nation (MBN) for the June meeting since they are who I officially represent on the MDNR Warmwater Resources Steering Committee. I believe the proposal they approved is already fairly 'radical' for some anglers (and lake association, other people who may not be crazy about the idea). The MBN also approved a more 'radical' proposal to do away with most closed seasons for most fish in Michigan by making catch-and-immediate-release legal instead of saying you cannot attempt to take a fish during its closed season as present law states (Act 451 of 1994 as amended).

There was at least one club rep at the meeting yesterday who was very concerned about 'more tournaments' on Lake St. Clair and this is a common concern or anxiety I heard this spring when I was sampling various levels of anglers about extending the bass season on Lake St. Clair back to Memorial Day - frankly, I had more bass tournament anglers opposed or unhappy with this idea than regular everyday anglers who more and more just want to fish whenever they can without any worry about having what is supposed to be an enjoyable day bothered or getting tickets.

I also get the private contact from members on here and from the public who are too anxious to share their opinions publicly on this forum or others because they don't like the idea of bass tournaments through the whole spawn. I do not think they represent the majority anymore but if enough of them were to speak out, considering all the effort and money the Humane Society of the US is putting into badgering our elected officials about any attempt to get more hunting or fishing opportunity or more control by the NRC/MDNR, we may draw enough attention to lose most of any opportunity. I can't go through all this only to come out of it with nothing.

I do not agree with any feelings that this will be our only shot - I can still hear 1 bass guide from the late 90's into the early 2000's telling me over and over and over that a longer bass season would never happen in a million years in Michigan... It may seem 'easier' this year but that is something most easy to believe if you are sitting on the outside sharing opinion but not actually writing papers and attending meetings to speak about these types of things. It is never 'easy.'

I have made it very clear for at least the past year, if not several, that I do not have time to waste right now on excessive meetings, online debate and 'fighting' for more than I feel we can get (and that I can manage). I always bring up additional options and discuss ideas at many of these meetings and I always work in whatever spare time I have to help things along that further the common cause of more fishing and bass fishing opportunity in Michigan (ex: Bassmaster Elite Series on St. Clair and Toyota All-Star Week in Muskegon this year) but I personally have to stick pretty close right now to what I believe I can manage and accomplish with the available support and help.

ANYONE else is more than welcome to step in and do something, especially if that someone has more time and money - I WOULD NOT be going to these meetings if the MBN board had not made me their conservation person and offered to help me with travel expenses when I represent them. It is that simple.

Every time we have go through change attempts I know I will hear from people who want more, and people who don't like the way I do it or what I do. I also know it is always harder each time just because I (and maybe no one else) can get near 100% of the anglers to agree and back an option 100%.

The value of the bass federations is that they are now (well, MBN so far) saying they 100% back the present proposals because that is their position. It doesn't mean everyone like the proposals 100%. It just means they are all willing to compromise and support the ones they approved as the most acceptable option. That makes things easier for me. Saves me time and saves me money (both the same thing really).
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on April 22, 2013, 04:46:09 PM
I cannot have foreknowledge that we will even get the present main bass season proposal through to law. I won't start to know until the first 'official' discussion in June. I do feel I have a pretty good idea that many anglers of all types just want to go fishing whenever they can just as I felt in 2004 that many anglers and bass anglers were ready for a longer season.

I also firmly believe no, or very limited closed seasons are better for everyone including the MDNR. I have always felt that way, which is why I try to take the time to do the things that I do, including running this website.

And I firmly believe that I do not know if next year, or the years after, things will be even easier, or harder on the government/MDNR side - and neither does anyone else. I firmly believe that more anglers will continue to grow more accepting of longer fishing seasons, and even more bass tournaments (though maybe at a different pace). I believe changing angler attitudes will always help with efforts to get more fishing opportunity.

I'm much more concerned about the lack of involvement in the process from enough anglers and hunters, while the 'involvement' and effort from anti's (HSUS, PETA, lake association people who don't want more boats on their lake) will continue to be high, and possibly even grow with the continued loss of participation in hunting and fishing. Almost every one of the people I see at most of the meetings are I attend are the same people, getting older. Like me. There are almost no young people stepping in to take our places. I'm way more concerned about that! "I'm too busy." "I don't have time for that." blah blah blah It actually is kind of amazing anything does get accomplished...??

I'm too busy too. I definitely don't have time for it, or the money to be spending driving all over. But SOMEONE has to do it.

I realize it may seem that I am angry or being harsh. No. I may admit to be a little frustrated but hey, things are heading in the right direction again overall and that always helps. I am trying to figure out how to get through to more people. I get asked all the time, 'how can I help?' I think I have provided many ways and ideas, yet the help is still almost not there beyond some words. If you're not a member of either bass federation, you are more part of the problem than part of the solution. If you aren't a member of MUCC, than you are more part of the problem than part of the solution. If you don't ever attend meetings, call or email your elected officials, write a letter to you news editor, etc. than you are more part of the problem than part of the solution. How much more or less depends upon all the things you do take the time to do. At least some of you do take the time to put your opinions on online sites and polls and that does help make you more a part of the solution than the problem.

But, change can ALWAYS use more bodies. Change can ALWAYS use more funds. Change takes time/effort and change takes money (MUCC spent thousands of dollars to get a group of people with the Governor and legislators Thursday). The more people who help, the easier and less time it may take; The less people who help, the harder it is and the more time it takes, regardless of who is in 'control.'

Anyone who wants to 'push for the maximum' is going to have to find someone who has the time, money and knowledge to work for it, and then they are going to have to support that person in more than words - a lot more for that much of a change - if they want to have any success at all. I can't be that person at this time.

I definitely will discuss options and feel various groups out (MDNR, MUCC and all the other user groups represented on the various committees). I always do that one way or another. I know my limits and I have proposals that meet them already so if I can accomplish that much with the help of a few people and the federation(s), I will be pretty satisfied I have done all that I personally can do for now.

I would love to see someone else accomplish even more. For selfish reasons, that would save me time, money and stress. I love the idea of saving in those three areas, especially stress. The information is out there to do it for anyone willing to make the time to do it. I always help anyone as much as I can who is after the same things I am - more fishing opportunity, more youth fishing, good natural resource care with maximum wise-use of our resources (because that keeps more users involved at least as much as buying licenses, gear and gas that fund much of the natural resources care since in Michigan user fees are paying 94% of the bill).
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on April 22, 2013, 05:12:39 PM
As far as the Governor's 2014 proposed MDNR budget license free proposal, I feel going on about the rationale of why they shouldn't get it is not a good use of time. They haven't had an increase in 16 or 17 years and they are chiefly responsible for the care of our definitely valuable natural resources. I care deeply about our natural resources. As long as it appears the MDNR is willing to change, I have 0% qualms in supporting the new fees. I had only ~10% concern prior considering a Michigan fishing license is a bargain. A steal.

The MDNR is publicly and repeatedly stating they will be more transparent. Anyone who was at the MBN presidents' meeting yesterday (Packed room! Thank you everyone who made it!!) got a chance to hear that directly from the #2 person in the MDNR. The MDNR is also recognizing that they need to be more responsive to the warmwater anglers. That is part of the main points of their new plans.

I don't mind being aware of possible motives, but I always have no problem using improved situations to our advantage regardless what the motives may or may not be. In the end, the same good can be accomplished (one of the 'secrets' of our Democratic society).

I continued to work last Thursday at the Capitol to make sure our elected officials know that I feel it is more fair to fund the MDNR with more money from the General Fund, or some other source - MDNR Deputy Director William Moritz discussed this too yesterday. I will continue to work for more fair budgets as a normal part of my behavior. Meanwhile, the MDNR needs to be funded and I will work within what is available right now. That means user fees.

I don't think changing fees with some increase after 16-17 years is much to ask. I like the idea of streamlining 220 licenses down to 30-some. If you agree with me, please call, write or email your legislator. They are being swamped right now with calls from people listening to the Humane Society of the US. They are hearing from almost no anglers and hunters. Letters to your local news outlets are very helpful too.

Contact your Representative (http://www.house.mi.gov/mhrpublic/)
Contact your Senator (http://www.senate.michigan.gov/fysenator/fysenator.htm)

Bill Parker, editor of Michigan Outdoor News, does a good job of explaining the budget proposal (http://www.outdoornews.com/February-2013/Hunting-and-fishing-license-fee-hikes-deserve-support/). There have been some recent changes within the legislative process. I will share them as soon as they appear a little more stable.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: ROI Outdoors on April 22, 2013, 10:40:53 PM
What economic impact would a year round C&R season have for Michigan?  I think its fair to say that most who go out early will go out early regardless.....short of everything being closed there's always going to be an opportunity for anglers to get out on the water. For 2013 a year round C&R season wouldn't create any additional opportunity let alone have any economic impact so what's the benefit there again?

How many people from Michigan or from anywhere for that matter do I know that drive to New York to fish their early C&R bass season on Erie? I don't know anyone that does that....anyone else out there know anyone that does? 

How many people from Michigan drive to Kentucky Lake for the NBAA Championship?  How many people from Michigan drive to Wawasee or Lake James to fish an event at the end of April or the beginning of May?  How many out of state teams fish the Sturgeon Bay Open?  Well the answer is a lot and it's events like these that create the "natural resource economy" that our friend from the MDNR has eluded too.  He also repeated the words "especially local economies" when referring to the economic impact of bass fishing as a sport. Maybe I read him wrong but he seemed to imply that the opportunity was with actual revenue generating activities but then I guess he could have been speaking in natural resources code or maybe some new form of Spanish....

To me it's common sense, Economics 101, simple math, whatever you want to call it just makes sense to create REAL opportunity for EVERYONE including the local communities that would benefit from a last Saturday in April opener......
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on April 23, 2013, 02:00:55 AM
I disagree with your first 2 paragraphs because they are both inaccurate, but I realize your statements are colored by your desire to have everything the way you want it right now (man... don't we all).

As I pointed out through various communications already, there is NOTHING stopping you, Matt or anyone else from writing up a proposal and sending it to the MDNR, then going out and doing the work it takes to get it accepted and passed. Nothing.

I already have my proposals. I already have the support I need to get started. My plate is already more full than I wanted it this year. I say that just in case you are posting your thoughts hoping someone else will do the work for you (it won't be me - see sentences 1, 2 and 3 of this paragraph).

I was grouchier early. I hadn't eaten when I should. But being less grumpy now doesn't change my feelings - anyone who wants something different and thinks they've got it figured out - go for it! And good luck to you! I mean that! I would love to see more persons working for change that brings more outdoor opportunity to Michigan! It won't stop me from trying to get as much backing as I can for the proposals I have (because that helps them be successful and I don't like to put a lot of time into something that is likely to fail).

Share your opinions on here. That's great! One of the main reasons I created this website. But please, do not take your opinion from opinion to expecting it to be someone elses marching orders. If you want something different done this year, you will need to be prepared to do the work to make it happen (or hire someone to do it for you - there aren't a bunch of volunteers out there waiting for something to do for someone else).

If you are really just sharing your opinion, then I apologize. I misread your purpose. Just read my first paragraph above as my opinion in response to your opinion and skip the rest.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: thedude on April 23, 2013, 09:52:46 AM
Dan - you've been given the opportunity by the groups with the political clout (albeit small) to successfully enact any kind of change. We can all submit proposals. They may get read, but enter grand-standing politics and our names mean nothing and we have no one to back us.  You singularly are the only person in this entire state right now with a tiny chance to make something happen - I'm not sure if you want that responsibility or not.  Knowing your personal stance, the scientific facts and given the circumstances of the events of Jan/Feb/Mar with the DNR, i'm personally confused and disappointed in the proposal. I was expecting something that resembled what you actually want and what anglers in MI deserve.  While you're spot on in that anyone of us can start from zero and in 20 years maybe get as far as you have - doesn't it make more sense to work together? There are plenty of people willing to chip in that want the exact same thing as you - doing everything yourself in a vacuum is a lose-lose imho.

I apologize for sounding critical, i sincerely do understand where you're coming from and appreciate the sacrifice it's taken - however the "me vs. the world" attitude doesn't jive with me.  There are people who's phone numbers you have (lots of them) that would lighten this burden. If you want to continue on that path, then don't share this info and just delete these posts because there is no point in discussing them.

Also - to be clear, i'm all for the license increase. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't get something out the deal.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: MBell on April 23, 2013, 10:39:22 AM
Dan, I have no intentions of writing my own proposal.  This is one of the many reasons I'm a member of MBN and TBF.  As an individual it is difficult to have influence on issues like these and I rely on these organizations to represent me.  IMO if you Bass fish in Michigan and you're not a member of both organizations you're only hurting yourself.     However as a member of the MBN Sunday was my only opportunity to have any input on the proposals that will be representing us as members.  I receive all the emails from Paul, and don't recall anything asking our members opinions so they can be represented accurately.   My comments Sunday represented the majority of my club.  Our club doesn't feel the proposal creates any additional tournament opportunity in Michigan.  We also feel that opening St. Clair with the rest of the state will reduce spring tournament participation up north.  South east Michigan's natural economy will benefit from this, at the expense of the rest of the state.  Our club will continue to take our money out of state during the closed/catch & release season along with several other Michigan anglers.   Personally my #1 goal would be to expand the tournament season to allow for more cold water tournaments.  As we know as anglers and studies have shown fish mortality is directly related to water temperature, particularly with smallmouths.  With our current season the majority of tournaments take place during the warmest months of the year.  As for Luke, your opportunity to speak up was on Sunday!  The proposal is going forward as is to represent the MBN, so this discussion is pointless.  As for the license increase, I'm fine with it as long as they sell a prorated Bass license for the 6 months Bass season is open!   
-Matt
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on April 23, 2013, 05:40:14 PM
Quote from: thedude on April 23, 2013, 09:52:46 AM
1. Dan - you've been given the opportunity by the groups with the political clout (albeit small) to successfully enact any kind of change.

If I gave the impression the sky is the limit or we've been give a blank check, I did not mean to. I'm not expecting a couple months of different behavior to mean that everyone (lake associations, all other anglers, anti's of course, etc.) wants regular bass tournaments all year or during the earlier part of the spawn (a not insignificant number of our own members are against this). That is not the case. Ask for more than you hope to get and reach an acceptable compromise is a good strategy. I do that most times. Start out too unrealistic and you're more likely to end up further down the compromise ladder than you wanted to be too in a more drawn out, contentious process. I'm not always right, but I have done this a few times.

Quote from: thedude on April 23, 2013, 09:52:46 AM
2. We can all submit proposals. They may get read, but enter grand-standing politics and our names mean nothing and we have no one to back us.

I like you a lot. You've been a great member to have on here and I enjoy your company. Since we are being direct I will be direct - I'm not sure what you mean by grand-standing politics in this case or who you are targeting with that, but when I hear things like "our names mean nothing and we have no one to back us" I often hear someone making an excuse to not do anything. I've heard just about every statement there is from people on why they don't try. But I know for a fact that even one person can make a difference if he/she is determined enough. Any one person. Starting from scratch with little or no knowledge. I've seen it many times at many levels. Maybe you don't intend it to be the excuse variety - I sure don't expect that from you and assume it is not, but regardless, any one of us can make a difference. So I disagree with the statement and I, personally, need to keep figuring out how to make more people realize that and act on it. It will be good for our future. I've never been someone who would make a good politician so sometimes I do not deliver 'the message' as well as someone more skilled at communication could do. I'm a logical nerd. I worry about that often.

Quote from: thedude on April 23, 2013, 09:52:46 AM
3. You singularly are the only person in this entire state right now with a tiny chance to make something happen - I'm not sure if you want that responsibility or not.

Again, this sounds a little like an excuse for others to not do much. It is also not true. If I was the only person with the entire weight of the Michigan bass fishing future resting on my shoulders, I would have a ton of work to do with little likelihood of accomplishing much for long periods of time unless I have tons of extra time and lots of extra money to spend - basically, the effort of a full-time job (think paid lobbyist - that's why they exist). We have more than a tiny chance because of things like so many bass anglers voluntarily practicing catch-and-release, and because enough anglers have made some type of public statement in support of a longer bass season. It would help if many more contacted their elected officials and the MDNR to state this. There's always room for more. But it is apparent to anyone with their eyes open that many anglers' opinions have evolved quite a bit. It has taken a long time for that to happen and to be more publicly recognized. The last time we did the bass season change process in 2004/2005 - it really took the final general angler survey showing that many anglers where fine with a longer fishing season to convince the MDNR to make the change.

As far as the responsibility... I really don't have the extra time, I definitely don't have the money to be doing this and would be better off concentrating on reducing stress. I got out of the boards and appointed positions for personal and necessary reasons. If someone else were to step forward and take over, I would be fine with that. I would offer advice and the information I am aware of. If that someone is open to a mix of determination and compromise, they could be successful. I don't see that person stepping forward and I have been asked multiple times to help because I have spent a lot of time in the past on these types of issues. I have made it clear to the people who have asked me, and have accepted my limits, that I will do it, but I have limits. Ideally, finding someone who doesn't have limits is awesome, but finding volunteers nowadays who will commit a ton of time and effort is much harder than it was even 10 years ago. I expect this to be more stressful for me because people tend to always want MORE from their volunteers, and sometimes they can be downright nasty in sharing their disappointment. But I'm not coming into this not knowing what to expect. Been there. Done that. I do NOT like that part of it, but I'm aware there will lots of pressure on me to do MORE. With more than I am able to do. I'm already getting more todo list stuff and email each day than I will ever get to. So, I will do my best, as much as I can do, and try to be personally satisfied I have done what I can. I'm often more hard on myself than other people are anyway, and I can't escape my own inner voice. It's always there reminding me what I've done and what I haven't done. At least I'm not an employee so there's only so much people can realistically expect me to do. It won't stop people from 'sharing' with me how much I haven't done or what I should have done, but I can remind them I am a volunteer, and that they are always welcome to volunteer and do a better 'job.'

Quote from: thedude on April 23, 2013, 09:52:46 AM
4. Knowing your personal stance, the scientific facts and given the circumstances of the events of Jan/Feb/Mar with the DNR, i'm personally confused and disappointed in the proposal.

Again, we have been given a blank check. I do expect in my excitement about this opportunity I could easily have given the impression that the sky is the limit. That is an oversimplification of all the factors involved and all the things that will need to occur to get any change accomplished including trying to get more of you to agree on a compromise the most number of people (meaning everyone in Michigan who has any care about these issues) will be willing to accept. I do not want to do this and just waste time. I have said multiple times that I will present and discuss options during this process. I already know if there are public meetings, others will show up and do the same. Sometimes it may help. Sometimes it may make the process more difficult. Until the first meeting in June, I will not have a real good idea where this is headed and what the real possibilities are. For all you and I know, we may get more. There are many additional factors involved this time at least more aware of the issue. Anything could happen. You all could end up being much happier. We could also all end up being real disappointed. I will put some effort into helping the former, and a lot of effort into avoiding the latter.

The proposals are what I feel, and enough of a majority agree with and can compromise on, that we can realistically accomplish this time around (including considering the limits I have stated for my personal involvement).
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on April 23, 2013, 05:40:50 PM
Quote from: thedude on April 23, 2013, 09:52:46 AM
5. I was expecting something that resembled what you actually want and what anglers in MI deserve.

The proposals are what I feel, and enough of a majority agree with and can compromise on, that we can realistically accomplish this time around (including considering the limits I have stated for my personal involvement). As I said above, until after the June meeting, none of us will really have a handle on what we can accomplish. I have always believed we will eventually get there barring some environmental disaster (which I also keep my eyes on). The proposals Michigan B.A.S.S. Nation approved are what I want this year. Because they are what I think we can get - at least 1 out of 2, and maybe parts of the second proposal. There will most definitely be opposition to much of this, and it will be a shame and a big disappointment to me if a lot of that opposition ends up being from anglers who can't accept making a next step, but will only accept getting everything now. I would say to those of you who are thinking of going that route, you need to spend some quality time at our Capitol and see how these things (change, legislation) actually work so you have a better understanding of our Democratic process. Or maybe just spend some time talking to the employees at MUCC for insight on outdoor change issues specifically.

I am sorry if I gave people the impression that we can easily accomplish anything we want this year. I did not intend to do that. This is never easy. Right now, I feel staying under the radar of the anti's has become more important to accomplishing anything. If you don't understand what I mean by that, please read the news and talk to your elected officials.

Quote from: thedude on April 23, 2013, 09:52:46 AM
6. While you're spot on in that anyone of us can start from zero and in 20 years maybe get as far as you have - doesn't it make more sense to work together?

It doesn't take 20 years necessarily. I mentioned above that I have seen plenty of examples of one person at even higher levels starting with little or no knowledge ending up successful just due to sheer determination and drive. How bad do all of you want this? I know how bad I want it and I feel I have demonstrated that. How have all of you demonstrated how bad you want it?

It makes great sense to work together. I am actually doing that. With as many people I can partner with, because I can accomplish a lot more much easier if it isn't 'I' but a bunch of 'we.' What those of you who want everything now have to realize is that you are not in the majority yet. Not even close. There are 4 to 500,000 bass anglers in Michigan. There are millions of people who don't fish. There are less than 20,000 B.A.S.S. members. I do want to work TOGETHER - do you? If the answer is yes, you will need to recognize that you are probably not near the majority for wanting it ALL right now. I do think many, many more people are ready more than ever for less restrictions and more fishing opportunity. I also know there are many people who do not want regular bass tournaments during May or a longer season on St. Clair (including bass tournament anglers, even members on this website on both counts). I also know there are many, many people who want to end all fishing (and hunting) period. I understand impatience. I understand frustration. Believe me, I really do. But to be more successful at change, I personally feel one has to be able to look very clearly past just what one wants to the complete picture - the gauntlet that is pretty much always run when trying to make change. If you can't do that, more often than not, you will be more successful butting your head against a wall than going to meetings and lobbying.

So, yes, I am working together. So far with the Michigan B.A.S.S. Nation (MBN), a number of other supportive angler groups I have talked to privately, a good number of business leaders, some elected officials - local and state, and a significant number of individuals who say they can live with this compromise if we get that much. I was hoping TBF of Michigan would also sign on but, partly my fault, I did not get the actual written proposals to Dave Reault early enough for him to be comfortable presenting them, so no official word from them. I am also their conservation person and will present whatever they ask me to - if they can get something to me by June 17, but as I mentioned above, I have expressed their are limits to how much I can do, and I will end up going down the pass of lesser resistance once I am sure what that path is, meaning the path that is most likely to lead to successful change in the right direction. With both federations having their meetings the same day, I had to pick one only and I had already committed to MBN, and I'm actually officially representing them on many of the committees and groups I am now on.

Quote from: thedude on April 23, 2013, 09:52:46 AM
7. There are plenty of people willing to chip in that want the exact same thing as you - doing everything yourself in a vacuum is a lose-lose imho. I apologize for sounding critical, i sincerely do understand where you're coming from and appreciate the sacrifice it's taken - however the "me vs. the world" attitude doesn't jive with me.

I don't know what you mean by 'chip in?' I do a terrible job of asking for help I know, but it is not like I don't ask at all. I am aware I can improve my communication skills (been told that a number of times by non-nerd 'normal' people in particular ;D). I am definitely not in a vacuum. I feel pretty good this time about accomplishing some significant change with the help of quite a few groups and people - see my response to #6 above. If I have once again communicated poorly to lead anyone to think I am talking about "me vs. the world" I am sorry. I did not intend that to be the message. I say I a lot. I'm a logical nerd. Some of us do that.

I cannot and do not intend to take all the credit or make it seem like no one else is helping. I repeat that I cannot do this alone and I'm not doing it alone. I count the Michigan B.A.S.S. Nation board of directors, all the people who practice catch-and-release often, all the people who have contacted the MDNR and/or their elected officials, or wrote a letter to the editor about how they want things, all the business people who are offering their signatures to proposals, all the government officials and business leaders who are actually publicly talking about bass tournaments being desirable, all the DNR fisheries people in any state or province who have been honest and open with me and/or the public about science, the new MDNR leadership emphasizing more success with wise use of our natural resources to help our economy, all the individuals who have offered their support publicly or privately, all the people who fish in the spring demonstrating there is a demand, and more, as partners in this process of change. Without all these things and more, change would take even longer and even more people pushing in the same direction to happen.

I do tend to complain a fair amount about the lack of involvement, but that is mainly because I know it could happen even faster and easier if more people made the time to be involved. As I said, I know impatience and frustration both - they are my 'friends.' I will continue to consider how I communicate because I would prefer more success. It would be good for everyone who enjoys our natural resources if I can become a more effective communicator. Anything any of us can do to be better communicators and more involved is good for our natural resources.

Quote from: thedude on April 23, 2013, 09:52:46 AM
8. There are people who's phone numbers you have (lots of them) that would lighten this burden. If you want to continue on that path, then don't share this info and just delete these posts because there is no point in discussing them.

If you have ideas for lightening any burden - mine or anyone elses, I'm all ears. Can't agree with most of this. I can't personally call everyone all the time. I spend so much time on the phone some days as it is. Another reason I created this forum is I can write something once and hundreds, sometimes even thousands, of people can 'hear' it, and even add their own opinions and ideas, once again, for a potentially unlimited audience, usually adding much more value to the discussion and knowledge. This type of communication is way more viral than calling individuals on the phone. Since I personally need to save time, I try to think of and use the most effective, efficient way to communicate with lots of people when that is what is required. I sometimes redirect people who contact me privately about general help and answers back to the forum because I believe it is a better use of the website I built, and it is often better to get more varied answers from more people. There are many things I don't know, but someone else probably does. I occasionnally have someone get angry at me for doing this but it is my personal opinion it is better to use the communication method that exists rather than private conversations only two of us benefit from.

I do not believe I'm on the path you are saying I'm on though I may make it sound that way sometimes in my own frustration and human shortcomings. I have asked for help of various kinds on here a number of times in a number of ways. I have asked some people for help privately though I don't do that very much for various reasons. I'm sure I do not say thank you enough or properly to those who do help. I know I can communicate better and I consider that a lot. Pretty much every day. Just for selfish reasons, life is easier when I communicate better. I'm sure many people find that to be true.

Of course, I won't stop sharing information on here. There'd be no sense in having a public forum, any public forum if people stopped sharing information and opinions. I sure don't think that is the right direction to head. I rarely delete posts (other than spam/free advertising attempts once in a while). I can't even think of the last time I or a moderator did that? I do have a log. Most deleted posts are self-deleted by the person who wrote them. I sometimes even contact people privately and ask why they deleted their own post - certain things that I think would be good for people to read and discuss.

Another reason I created this forum was because I think it is possibly a helpful tool for more people to see how varied opinions can be from person to person - we surely don't all think alike or have the same exact values, how many things we have in common (I wish we anglers/hunters/outdoors people spent even more time on those) and maybe learn how to work together despite our differences (maybe by recognizing our common ideas more?) to still accomplish productive change that we can all compromise and agree on. Who enjoys the annual disagreement conflicts and just spinning their wheels on the same differing opinions every year? Not me... Many of the changes I personally propose or jump on board with have a built-in goal to reduce as much conflict as possible between outdoors people. Are 'fight' is not with each other. Never has, never was, never should.

So, no, I'm not going to stop posting information, or make a habit of deleting differing opinions. I will definitely share mine and respond, sometimes in maybe too forceful a way, but I like to think that most of the time, for me, that is driven by the depth of how important some of these topics are to me. That's my intent anyway, even when I fail.

Definitely, if everytime someone disagrees with someone else or isn't happy with the direction something takes, they quit, or delete their opinions, or tell someone/everyone else to delete theirs or stop sharing, the forum becomes a failure. I spend a lot of time thinking about how to make the forum successful not a failure. I do seek out private consultation about these kinds of things often because I do not know everything. There are always knowledgeable, helpful people out there and I appreciate that many are willing to share. Thank you.

I also realize that we humans often react one way in the short term and then maybe come around to a different way later after having time to think about things. At least, I do that a lot. I wish I did it less often. I will keep trying to improve on that myself. Most of what I write on this forum is almost never directed at one person. I do try very hard to remember that there are lots of different eyes on most topics. I apologize to anyone who thinks when I respond to their words that I only aim my response towards that person. I usually am not doing that though I should always be aware that it will seem that way to many people.

Quote from: thedude on April 23, 2013, 09:52:46 AM
9. Also - to be clear, i'm all for the license increase. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't get something out the deal.

Great! I'm glad to hear that. I am in whether we get something or not. I feel we need a strong MDNR. I would rather have a strong MDNR and then put in the effort to try to get them doing what I would like them to do than have an ineffective or less effective MDNR that can't do much. The MDNR has been more transparent this spring because the user groups have told them that is what they expect. The MDNR come out with statements and goals that demonstrate they realize they need to be more receptive and possibly helpful to warmwater anglers. We just had the Deputy Director at the MBN meeting - it was a PACKED meeting too by the way, THANK YOU so much to those of you who made it! I am willing to work from where we are at right now to help the MDNR work better and more with us. It has to start somewhere, and as the Director himself, Keith Creagh told me personally, culture change takes time, please be a little patient. Patience is not one of my strong points either, but I will definitely try. :)
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: ROI Outdoors on April 23, 2013, 06:54:08 PM
Wow.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on April 23, 2013, 07:52:15 PM
Quote from: MBell on April 23, 2013, 10:39:22 AM
Dan, I have no intentions of writing my own proposal.  This is one of the many reasons I'm a member of MBN and TBF.  As an individual it is difficult to have influence on issues like these and I rely on these organizations to represent me.  IMO if you Bass fish in Michigan and you're not a member of both organizations you're only hurting yourself.     However as a member of the MBN Sunday was my only opportunity to have any input on the proposals that will be representing us as members.  I receive all the emails from Paul, and don't recall anything asking our members opinions so they can be represented accurately.   My comments Sunday represented the majority of my club.  Our club doesn't feel the proposal creates any additional tournament opportunity in Michigan.  We also feel that opening St. Clair with the rest of the state will reduce spring tournament participation up north.  South east Michigan's natural economy will benefit from this, at the expense of the rest of the state.  Our club will continue to take our money out of state during the closed/catch & release season along with several other Michigan anglers.   Personally my #1 goal would be to expand the tournament season to allow for more cold water tournaments.  As we know as anglers and studies have shown fish mortality is directly related to water temperature, particularly with smallmouths.  With our current season the majority of tournaments take place during the warmest months of the year.  As for Luke, your opportunity to speak up was on Sunday!  The proposal is going forward as is to represent the MBN, so this discussion is pointless.  As for the license increase, I'm fine with it as long as they sell a prorated Bass license for the 6 months Bass season is open!    
-Matt

I thank you for joining both groups. I thank you for serving on the board of one. You are helping make a difference.

"IMO if you Bass fish in Michigan and you're not a member of both organizations you're only hurting yourself." Totally agree! Always have. I tell people to please join one, the other, or both fairly often. I need to do it more.

It is not difficult as individual to have influence. I'm an individual. I just became the conservation person for both in the last couple weeks. I feel like I have some success with influence. So it can be done. You just have to be willing to make whatever effort it takes.

The organizations do represent you. You elect the people who run your club. They choose and elect the people who run the federations. The Michigan B.A.S.S. Nation has operated the same way for as long as I can remember - which is back to about 1984-85 - except they did stop picking the Classic Series lakes at the president's meeting! Man, that was a nightmare sometimes. It is partially what drove them to operate more like our government operates - a representative Democracy. The squeaky wheel does get the grease quite often so if you don't 'squeak' you're not going to get 'grease' very often.

How they decided this issue was no different than how they decide many or most issues - they go with what they feel is the best option considering the information they have and the input they have previously received from club reps. All of their names and contact information are on their website so it is easy let them know your opinions at any time about any topic, just like it works in our various levels of government. If you don't communicate with them, they might not know your opinions.

As I have gone by much more than just a few people's comments on this issue, so did they. A few of the same topics came up and were discussed before there was unanimous vote to support. This wasn't a snap decision made in a few minutes. They all read a lot of the same stuff you all read. Each board member has his or her own personal opinions too. They never agree on everything the same way but they know once a vote is taken that they need to get behind it for it to be successful regardless of their personal opinions. That is how things get done.

I don't agree that St. Clair will take tournaments away from the North. People all over the country, even the world, want to come to St. Clair. St. Clair has the facilities and it is closer to everyone else, which makes it a natural destination anyway.

Many anglers are now finding, through TV shows, websites, etc. that we have excellent fishing up North too and there is slow, but steady growth of bass anglers fishing up North. It is still very light. If gas prices weren't so high and they had the facilities up there, more options would be more likely. Possibilities have been discussed quite a few times for a number of years. At some point, we will see these possibilities become reality as long as enough people continue to want to fish things like tournaments. Some more involvement by bass anglers, particularly organized bass anglers, could help speed that process up some. I do not think it hurts at all to have the Bassmaster Toyota All-Star Week on the West side of Michigan in Muskegon this year.

The first thing I would suggest is that all of you tell everyone you know about these events. We need big crowds and great participation to keep getting these events, which will also help drive other change and opportunity.

As far as more bass tournaments, as I have said, if enough people continue to want them, they will expand regardless of what some people might want. Rather than use up time and effort I don't have on a much tougher issue, I am going to help expand the bass season so the far more numerous anglers can also enjoy more bass fishing. I think other factors will drive the bass tournament issue along. I have actively worked on helping that along in just the past week, and continue to do so. I just know my personal limits, and how and where my time is best spent to do what I'm able to help move things in the right direction.

I will say one more time, ANYONE else can write whatever proposal they want. Stop making excuses and do it, if you want it that bad - I'm saying that to anyone who feels the same way as expressed by people on here. Stop trying to tell me or anyone else that they need to do what you want. You want it - YOU DO IT! If you have the support and rationale you believe you have, than you may actually be successful. You definitely get what you put into it - put nothing into it, you will probably get nothing out of it.

The bass tournament question has been a hindrance to the Michigan bass season issue for a long, long time. I am not personally ready to take it on head-to-head if it is going to be a battle. I do not have the time and other things it will take. I have recommended to both federations that they do not make it a major part of any change effort right now either though I have actively been discussing the economic impact with other influential people outside of this effort - there are more one way to get to your destination. If TBF of Michigan picks a position that is quite a bit different than the MBN one, our efforts for any change will be more challenging. As I said, I would still turn it in but I cannot personally put all my efforts into a losing effort. I will always state who has what position but I'm not going to create and fight any protracted battles. As soon as I see what seems most likely after the June meeting in Lansing, I will advise the board or boards, and others I represent and/or cooperate with, and go from there.

Throughout the year, every year, I do take some of my time to advance Michigan fishing opportunity in any way I see possible. Some efforts are public and some are not. Not just bass fishing opportunity. That would be shortsighted - like expecting a 6-month prorated bass fishing license when all kinds of fish live in the same water relying on the same habitat, forage and clean water, which are required by bass and all fish 12 months out of the year, not 6. $15 or $25 once a year is a ridiculous bargain anyway. Myself, and others go to meetings and do these other activities because it is obvious we cannot afford to be shortsighted when it comes to our natural resources.

My challenge to all of you is to ask you do you want some change or no change? If you continue to want your way or no way, no change becomes a little more likely. Get behind the best available alternative option, compromise, and some change in the right direction is a lot more likely. Or, get to work on your way. Those are really your two options. Doing nothing is not an option. It never has been. So please, don't choose it. If you do, you are only hurting yourself (and the rest of too, actually).
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: jcox7 on April 23, 2013, 09:35:07 PM
Maybe the Federations should have got together (god forsake us) and had an open town hall meeting where we could of put an action plan together.  The question should be if we should be trying to fish a few weeks early in C&R or if we should of put a more aggresive plan together to open the season longer or all the way.  The last idea is if we should of not worried at all about this subject and worried about protecting what we have.  Dan is right when he says there are a lot of groups that would love to make our enjoymet less enjoyable seems to me that we should be putting together ideas and plans to stop them and stop fighting with ourselves about such small things that are all in all just nothing. 
An extended C&R does nothing (sorry Dan) Im just waitning to get a ticket for fishing so I can set preciedent in court and then who cares. 
Opening the season would take 270,000 signatures on a petition then we could put it on a ballott and see where the state truthfully stands but as Dan says none of you really want to help and those signatures would take a lot of people working together for an end cause and ha that probably is a dream.
Opening St Clair early.........I have said it before it is a border lake and not only will Michigan not step on Ontarios toes over this America will not step on Canadas toes.  If this happens I would be shocked but again it would not benifit me because I fish other lakes in our state.  Please just dont try to say this is about fishing anglers and then bring St Clair as the big prize since Im guessing 80% or more of licensed fisherman in Michigan have never even fished that body of water.
What I do believe we should be preparing for is the attack on Northern Tournaments.  The law changes in Minnesota and Wisconsin is proof of what is going on in our region.  Wisconsin can and do close tournaments once the water temp hits a certain degree and Minnesota has many lakes that after a certain time of the year you can only have 3 fish tournaments.  We need to have the support of our MDNR but that being said we do not need them making bad choices for us.
The federations are a great way for anglers to get our voices heard as a group but for some reason here in Michigan it is alomost a joke.  Indiana has the least fishable water in the country yet there federations have nearly 3600 members here in Michigan we have maybe 500 combined that is sad!!!!
Lastly please do not thin that Govt. works slow in Indiana anglers complained about the A Rig and 6 weeks later laws were changed and it is now illegal 6 weeks not slow.  The Right to Work law was beought up and finished in what seemed like days!!

Not looking to fight just pointing out we need to work together and we have not done that

Jeffery Cox
Vice President of THE BASS FEDERATION
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: thedude on April 24, 2013, 09:40:25 AM
Dan - not making excuses. I simply don't have the time, energy, experience, contacts or knowledge to do this by myself.  If I were to make a list of things i'm good at, Sales and Politics would not be on that list. Problem solving, planning, logistics, arguing on the internet - sure. I want to help you. I've offered to help you - even drive you to meetings - because that is some way i can actually add value but other than that, you have to tell me. Not so much an excuse, it's just reality - the things i do, i do well - the things i don't do well, i simply don't do. 10 people submitting 10 different proposals adds no value and just makes us look like a big, unorganized mess.

I've been hearing you say that the (deputy?) Director of the DNR explicitly expressed to you (more than once) they want you to give them a proposal on the bass seasons (a) and that they think tournaments could provide positive economic improvement in many communities (b).

I don't think this gives us anything resembling a blank check to ask for the world - and correct me if i misheard or misunderstood when we spoke about it before.

I submit a lot of designs in response to RFPs at work. Typically if someone asks for a proposal and gives me context i fine tune my proposal to meet the specifics of that context.  My confusion stems from trying to figure out how an extended C&R season and earlier St. Clair opener show positive economic improvement, in small communities, via an expanded tournament season.  

I understand there will be push back on any season change from the Antis or lake owners etc - frankly, that is the DNR's problem. If they are truthful in saying they want to expand tournament opportunity - then the proposal should address that in some fashion. This is what they asked for, let them deal with the aftermath. Are we really that worse off if they decline the whole thing? We already have an unenforceable C&R - just keep "violating". Seems like the only people that gain anything at all here are people who fish lake st. clair.  I agree, it should be under the same seasons as everywhere else, but it seems unfair to the rest of the state.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: PineLk 49 on April 24, 2013, 09:59:15 AM
Lets take a look at this two headed monster from another angle. Dan has mentioned this several times but only one person has picked up on this. LAKE ASSOCIATION!!! The loudest voice is the lake association. I am a member of 2 lake associations and the number 1 complaint is Tourney Anglers.FYI I am a tourney angler and have been for 35 years. They are trying to shut us down. They want to ban tourneys. This is why I am a member to give a voice as to why they should not.

If it take small strides to keep everyone on board, I am all for that. Be very cautious with your wish list because you and I may end up with less than what we started with in the end.

I love my state, land and waters. We have something that the majority of the world will never experience. So please take your blinders off and expand on your vision as a whole. In the end when everyone gets a piece of the pie, WE ALL WIN!!!

Dave


Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Waterfoul on April 24, 2013, 11:07:54 AM
Quote from: thedude on April 24, 2013, 09:40:25 AM
I understand there will be push back on any season change from the Antis or lake owners etc - frankly, that is the DNR's problem. If they are truthful in saying they want to expand tournament opportunity - then the proposal should address that in some fashion. This is what they asked for, let them deal with the aftermath. Are we really that worse off if they decline the whole thing? We already have an unenforceable C&R - just keep "violating". Seems like the only people that gain anything at all here are people who fish lake st. clair.  I agree, it should be under the same seasons as everywhere else, but it seems unfair to the rest of the state.

I have been told by 3 different people that this is exactly what the DNR expressed.  More opportunity.  Well let's give them that kind of proposal.  Seems easy to me.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on April 24, 2013, 05:21:08 PM
I like town hall meetings. I went to one not that long ago. I would like to see bigger federation(s) in Michigan too.

I'm glad jcox7 brought up the Wisconsin and Minnesota overregulations. A few of these Northern states do get (wrong) ideas from each other. I'm concerned that bass anglers in Minnesota don't seem to be hardly trying to stop them - at all the ones I have talked to so far. I'm concerned about the things going on in New Hamshire and Maine too. Way more dangerous to our sport than most of the things anglers argue about. I would love to see Michigan be the Northern trendsetter in "more fishing opportunity" ideas. That would be positive.

There are people helping in Michigan, just never enough. We can't afford to keep being like the Minnesota anglers I talked to who told me it wouldn't make a difference if they tried, so they did nothing... ::)

I disagree with anyone who says year-round legal bass fishing in Michigan won't add opportunity. I know it will. I will be including cited data on that topic when I turn in my proposal. A chunk of the angler infighting each winter/spring on the internet in Michigan (and other Northern closed states and Ontario) is the result of resentment between the anglers who follow the law and don't fish (many of them on this forum such as myself since 2006) and the anglers who ignore the law and fish.

Open the season all year, and many of these other anglers will start fishing earlier than the existing opener - hence, more opportunity and economic impact. I will be one of the anglers who will start earlier. We are talking about 4 to 500,000 possible early anglers not the much smaller number of hardcore anglers that go whenever regardless of the law. We will also attract more out-of-state anglers with simpler regulations that allow them to fish whenever they can travel. I know this just from the out-of-state anglers who contact me through this website alone, let alone considering the almost 300,000 out-of-state bass anglers who already travel here in the season now - I don't doubt if you ask our out-of-state anglers just on this website if they will start fishing here earlier if they could that you can easily prove there will be more fishing, hence, more opportunity and more economic impact.

Any of you who want to keep thinking there is no positive economic impact from any longer fishing season can continue to state that, but it is not true, and there is plenty of data that proves that. There will be many more fishing days, meaning more money spent on fishing in Michigan, and another probable positive benefit, also shown by studies, is that the earlier anglers have a chance to go fishing, particularly for their favorite fish, the more likely they are to buy a fishing license that year. The later in the year they go before they buy their fishing license, the more likely they are to just skip buying a fishing license that year. When you are dealing with a million+ anglers, these types of situation can have a significant impact positively or negatively. Considering we are down 200,000 or more fishing licenses in Michigan, I'm going to work on things that might sell more licenses.

I expect St. Clair to continue to be talked about a lot. I expect to have more trouble with bass tournament anglers over that issue than anyone else. Which is crazy, but that is how these things tend to work... Crazy that the least major change may be the most problematic issue (not that I didn't expect that)... You will believe me or not, I can't help that, but priority #1 for me has always been legal bass fishing all year statewide. It will be in this process too. Everything else is secondary to that. I have said numerous times that will try to accomplish as much as it appears is possible, but I will work hardest to get year-round, legal bass fishing statewide. The rest this time around is all bonus. I like bonus. I hope the MDNR and people are ready for more now. It would be good for all of us in the long run. I won't know at all until June 17.

Frankly, I would feel great if I could get up any day of the year and decide I'm going bass fishing on lake _____ whatever today, and actually be able to do it. Many, many other people will feel the same way. Just asking random people that walk by my booths at each winter's show I get that response, let alone the people on this forum who tell me they would love to be able to fish, but won't fish it until it is legal. I care about these people just as much as I care about any other angler. Every angler and potential angler is valuable in my eyes. Every extra fishing day is valuable to everyone.

Please, everyone, stop saying what you can't do, or won't do, or will never happen, and do SOMETHING. As the saying goes, whether you think you can or think you can't...you're right.

Change can definitely happen faster if enough people want it, and make the effort.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on April 24, 2013, 05:55:39 PM
thedude, I do not remember you or anyone offering to drive me to meetings...? But, I don't remember what I did this morning either so who knows? If you did, thank you. I forgot. I try to make notes of important things. You do know these meetings are mostly during the week, scattered all over the state and many are practically all day? That is why I hear most people say they can't make most meetings I talk about.

At least I do have the Michigan B.A.S.S. Nation helping me with gas mileage for the meetings that I represent them. Again, I thank them. I could not do what I have so far without that help. Which makes working with them pretty important to my odds of being a successful part of this process.

As far as what I said about the MDNR, I was excited to finally hear what I have been waiting for a long, long time - we are 'officially' no longer undesirable! ;D I did not say the MDNR wants another 500 tournaments. What I said is that they are now saying basically that we can be friends and they (a few of them) are openly, publicly talking positively about bass tournaments for the first time. I still expect more tournaments to happen because anglers want them, and more local business and government are becoming aware and putting some effort into this area. Up until 7 weeks ago, it was made clear to me by some in the MDNR that ANY change would have to not have anything to do with bass tournaments (whether it actually increased that opportunity or not in the end).

Again, I did not say they asked for X number of additional bass tournaments. This was just a sign that more things are now possible including conditions that would allow and attract more tournaments. I get excited, who knows what impression I might give? I've been tired of the annual intra-angler (and hunter) infighting for decades. I've been tired for a couple decades of having some people treat me as 'undesirable' just because I own a bass boat. It is very refreshing - a real good feeling to have some of that lifted. Definitely does not mean I expect 100% acceptance and love across the board suddenly from everyone for what we do. Man, I've been around block, not in a turnip patch.

Shoot, I have even seen negative comments from bass tournament anglers recently including 1 club rep Sunday who complained about not wanting more tournaments at Lake St. Clair... oh boy. Why does this always have to be so complicated...?? It just is. It just is.

So, more possible, yes. Are all are trials and tribulation suddenly gone? Heck no. Wait until we get to the public part of this...

PS: The Deputy Director clarified Sunday that his comments about increasing Michigan's natural resource economy pertained to any group, including just a group of visiting anglers. He did NOT say, 'yeah, lets have 500 more bass tournaments.' Anyone who thinks they heard that has probably needed relief from this crazy situation in Michigan fishing a lot worse even than me.

I understand wanting something real bad. I also understand the Democratic process real well. I have to consider both and more, along with what I am personally able to handle when I choose how much I'm willing and able to do. I imagine anyone who wants everything now real bad will end up thinking I didn't do enough, while others who maybe have a more realistic idea of how the Democratic process goes will be fairly happy with any additional positive change we get. That's pretty much how it always goes. I really could never be in politics. This stuff could drive a logical nerd nuts!
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on April 24, 2013, 06:11:34 PM
Now, I really have to get back to working on other peoples' website because if I don't spend most of my time doing that, I won't be going to any meetings or writing any papers about anything.

I suggest all of you figure out what you can individually do to help, get more acquainted with the Democratic process maybe, read what I'm saying without hearing before you do that I'm not going to do what you personally think I should do, and get on board, if you want any change at all. I know many of you want some change. So do many other people, thank goodness.


Also, thank you to all of you who have donated to this website, who have helped out at an outdoor show, who have given an advertiser who supports this website a chance to earn your business, who have started your online shopping with the affiliate shopping links - without some of that help and support, I would be out of this process completely. People would have to get after someone else to do what they want the 'right' way!!! ;D
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: ROI Outdoors on April 24, 2013, 09:00:14 PM
The great thing about the process is that no one person or group is in total control of the outcome.  I do know a lot of people including myself that are very disappointed with the proposals being presented on behalf of the Federation Nation and even more disappointed with the fact that you could present another more progressive proposal in addition too what you are already proposing but refuse to do so.  Why is it that?

How much input on these 2 proposals came from it's membership?  How much input did the Board of Directors have on these proposals?  Was it a discussion or was it a "here's what I think" presentation and then an "all in favor" vote? 

The sad part about the whole situation is the amount of time people have wasted discussing this topic on this site yet go seemingly unrepresented when an opportunity comes along......
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on April 25, 2013, 01:58:22 AM
Uh... I'm starting to think I do type too much. Or reading comprehension is an issue that should be studied more... maybe both? I've covered all of your questions already. Some more than once. You'll just have to either read everything, or take my word for it.

I've said multiple times that I will be offering/discussing other ideas and options. I will go with whatever seems most likely to be successful, trying to get the best possible outcome. I ALWAYS have done that. I'm actually more than a little ticked that I'm getting this to tell you the truth. If you have no trust in me, then you better be out finding someone else who will do what you want the way you think it needs to be done. This reminds why I will not go into politics. There, insanity, for me does lie.

It helps that I remember I'm only getting this from a handful of people. Only 1 person actually spoke up in a packed room of maybe 50 people, and no one else from any other club/group spoke in support. Also, I always look around the room and there weren't heads shaking and amen comments being made. It was dead still and silent.

On the other hand, when I answered Matt, there were heads shaking yes and even comments of support made from a number of people around the room. You have to watch for these things to know where you really stand. I always do that. It's part of 'how to be successful in a Democratic process' that I follow. If you don't look around to see what other people are doing, don't pay attention, it is easy to fool yourself into thinking you have a coalition that doesn't exist. I've been in coalitions that didn't exist before. It sucks. Especially when you want your way and that's that. I've wanted my way plenty of times and not got it.

Since I don't like that very much, I decided long ago that I better figure out better ways to get things done. There are people out there who are really good at this stuff (and still fail a lot) that are willing to share how-to information too. It's no different than finding good anglers to ask questions.

You are right that there is no one person in 'control.' As always, we will have to win over MUCC, which can be unpredictable, hence (I like that word lately) I have been working on that ahead of time with the help of others. We will have to win over, and make care, a bunch of people representing all other kinds of fishing groups besides bass, win over enough of the MDNR and then get it by the public without a huge stink being raised that dents or kills the whole thing. If we don't have a pretty good amount of support and help convincing all these, things will stay the same (which could be perceived as a loss, as some people in the Democratic process might point out - actually will point out - been there, done that too).

Though we would still get to fight more every winter over resentment and opinions, and some of us will fish illegally while some of us will sit, waiting and simmering.

Let me say one more time - IF YOU WANT SOMETHING YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GO WORK FOR IT! If you won't work for it, stop expecting someone else to do it for you. That is how our Democratic process works. You work for things, or sometimes you pay someone else to do it for you. You just don't go around finding a bunch people waiting around to volunteer to give you your exact way through their hard effort. Especially when you are in a minority. If you really want your way, you should be thinking about that.

This whole thing didn't sneak up on anyone. We've been talking about it more than enough long enough for any of you to have been discussing this with your clubs, your federations reps, whomever long before this point. You can't wait until the last minute and then try to talk to everyone. It doesn't work that way. I went to the first meeting to get this going again in April of 2012. I've been discussing options with various groups and people since before that time.

What I find real interesting, is this small number of people is telling me they don't know how to do this, they can't do this, they don't have the information or knowledge (or support... hmmm?). They tell me I'm the only one who can do this because I'm the only one who has the knowledge (and support... hmmm?) to do this. And then...

they tell me I'm doing it wrong...  ::)

Luckily, if the rest of us who are doing it wrong get somewhere with new and more opportunity... you still get to benefit from it too, even if you refuse to accept that it is more/new opportunity!!  As Mick Jagger says, 'You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime, you get what you need.' :-*

Heck, later on, when everything is finally the way it is going to end up, you can even tell me you were right and I was wrong (you will not be the first)... If you can find me. I will probably be out fishing, and we have lots of water out there I haven't even been on yet!

That's all I've ever wanted. To just go fishing. Whenever I can, however I want to, for whatever I feel like fishing for. It doesn't seem like too much to ask. But yes, you usually have to work for what you want in this country. I don't care who's right, who's wrong. Who gets the credit. Who doesn't. I just want to go fishing. Can I just go fishing? Please?
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: ROI Outdoors on April 25, 2013, 07:24:26 AM
Is part of your plan to insult those who disagree with you?  Good luck with that.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: jcox7 on April 25, 2013, 09:46:09 AM
Dan
     I would first off to say I am only being honest here.  I agree with your main point here, as much as most people who know both of us know how much we have really not liked each other.(remember I am a undercover PETA agent LOL)  Sure we have talked more in the past year which is better than us bad talking each other but that is all in all a whole different thing.  You are 100% correct in my eyes, if I was the person doing 99% of the work I would also listen to others to a point but if I were spending all my time on it at the end of the day I would attempt to get something out of my time and not shoot for the stars.  It would suck to spend so much time and get nothing for it.  I will say this for you.....
For all of you with the best and greatest ideas stop wasting time typing on here and start typing your own proposals.  If you do not have time to go to meetings to have them heard get them to me and I will get them into the hands of people that can read them and if they make since and are written well enough with scientific and economical backing I am sure it will be discussed but until you want to to at least that stop commenting on someone elses hard work!!  For every complaint you have with the direction Dan is taking you have not taken any direction.  Some of you are my friends some of you are not I do not care all in all if you want "your" words read then shut up and write them.  If your excuse is you do not have time try this log off GLB and stay off until you write something you might be suprised at how much time you really have.  Give up the next day you plan to go fishing work on this and maybe you can add hundreds of hours per year of legal fishing how busy can you really be??
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Lightningboy on April 25, 2013, 11:36:52 AM
Quote from: ROI Outdoors on April 25, 2013, 07:24:26 AM
Is part of your plan to insult those who disagree with you?  Good luck with that.

Really?  That's your eloquent contribution to this discussion?   ???

This will never get done, we can't even seem to drop the crap between all of us on the same web page, let alone different angler groups.

Most of us are old enough to remember the anti's attack on bear hunting in MI with hound or bait.  Sportsman could have sat back and said, "I don't bear hunt, so it doesn't effect me". 

But that's not what happened.  Sportsman from many groups & the MDNR banded together to not only defeat proposal D, but to prevent further attacks by supporting proposal G.  Remember "D is dumb, G is good"?  This happened by "kitchen table" discussions by sportsman across the state.  I tried to lobby every non sportsman ear I could bend.  So did others.  Still sounds like a good plan to me.

Open season all year, on all waters, or coincide with the the pike/walleye opener.  Keep it simple, get everybody on board.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: thedude on April 25, 2013, 01:18:43 PM
QuoteMost of us are old enough to remember the anti's attack on bear hunting in MI with hound or bait.  Sportsman could have sat back and said, "I don't bear hunt, so it doesn't effect me". 

more recently we did exactly the opposite for the dove bill - MI sportsman in general are at each others throats for the most part these days.



Dan - i offered at the show in passing conversation - don't worry about it. The impression I got from that same conversation is somewhat contrary to what replied with here. So i'll leave it at that. I understand better your position now and can't fault you for that.  I still think pushing a little harder for something like an April opener would be a good thing, even if it's not eventually adopted - at least if we lose the gamble, the seed is planted.  It doesn't need to be about tournaments either - as stated a simplification of the regulations surely make enforcement easier and closes the gap on ignorance of regulations resulting in violations. This would surely benefit both angler and DNR/LEO through increased opportunity and cost savings.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on April 25, 2013, 03:48:22 PM
Quote from: ROI Outdoors on April 25, 2013, 07:24:26 AM
Is part of your plan to insult those who disagree with you?  Good luck with that.

If you are talking to me, I don't know where you took something as an insult. But you took it that way. I didn't mean to insult anyone. I'm just stating my opinions too and I'm being direct because it seems to be called for.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on April 25, 2013, 03:58:51 PM
Quote from: jcox7 on April 25, 2013, 09:46:09 AM
Dan
     I would first off to say I am only being honest here.  I agree with your main point here, as much as most people who know both of us know how much we have really not liked each other.(remember I am a undercover PETA agent LOL)  Sure we have talked more in the past year which is better than us bad talking each other but that is all in all a whole different thing.

When I disagree (sometimes strongly) it doesn't always mean I like or don't like someone. I'm a redhead. My face turns red. Looks a little crazy. Feels a little crazy sometimes...

I like you fine when we talk about things without either of us getting contentious. Even if we don't agree 100% on everything as long as we are able to talk about it reasonably. I have enjoyed some of our recent discussions quite a bit. Thanks for sharing your opinions.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on April 25, 2013, 04:12:25 PM
Quote from: Lightningboy on April 25, 2013, 11:36:52 AM
Quote from: ROI Outdoors on April 25, 2013, 07:24:26 AM
Is part of your plan to insult those who disagree with you?  Good luck with that.

Really?  That's your eloquent contribution to this discussion?   ???

This will never get done, we can't even seem to drop the crap between all of us on the same web page, let alone different angler groups.

Most of us are old enough to remember the anti's attack on bear hunting in MI with hound or bait.  Sportsman could have sat back and said, "I don't bear hunt, so it doesn't effect me". 

But that's not what happened.  Sportsman from many groups & the MDNR banded together to not only defeat proposal D, but to prevent further attacks by supporting proposal G.  Remember "D is dumb, G is good"?  This happened by "kitchen table" discussions by sportsman across the state.  I tried to lobby every non sportsman ear I could bend.  So did others.  Still sounds like a good plan to me.

Open season all year, on all waters, or coincide with the the pike/walleye opener.  Keep it simple, get everybody on board.

I like your suggestion quite a bit. As I have said, I will be getting a feel for how likely that might be possible or not. I wish I was a lobbying juggernaut right now with a lot more available time. There is room for someone else who wants to go for that with more personal and time resources.

I appreciate you taking the time to share your opinions to.

'Kitchen table' discussions (including online kitchens) have played an important part in the bass (and fishing) season issue too.

Speaking of Proposal G, the real attempt to finally implement it 16 years later is under way. I saw this morning that the Senate versions of bills 288 and 289 Scientific Management passed: SB 288 by a vote of 25 to 11 and SB 289 by a vote of 27 – 9. I think the House versions will be more challenging, but many groups are working on that. I discussed these bills with several elected officials last Thursday. Read: http://www.mucc.org/2013/04/halfway-there-michigan-senate-passes-sb-288-and-289/ for more information.

I'm thinking of a new slogan: "Let's drop the crap!"

What do you think?
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on April 25, 2013, 04:26:44 PM
Quote from: thedude on April 25, 2013, 01:18:43 PM
QuoteMost of us are old enough to remember the anti's attack on bear hunting in MI with hound or bait.  Sportsman could have sat back and said, "I don't bear hunt, so it doesn't effect me". 

more recently we did exactly the opposite for the dove bill - MI sportsman in general are at each others throats for the most part these days.

Dan - i offered at the show in passing conversation - don't worry about it. The impression I got from that same conversation is somewhat contrary to what replied with here. So i'll leave it at that. I understand better your position now and can't fault you for that.  I still think pushing a little harder for something like an April opener would be a good thing, even if it's not eventually adopted - at least if we lose the gamble, the seed is planted.  It doesn't need to be about tournaments either - as stated a simplification of the regulations surely make enforcement easier and closes the gap on ignorance of regulations resulting in violations. This would surely benefit both angler and DNR/LEO through increased opportunity and cost savings.

So help think of more ways to stop outdoors people from being at each other's throats. I think about it a lot. Big waste of energy.

I do now vaguely remember that you offered something about that at the show. I am usually less memory-capable during the shows so anything I don't write down will most likely be lost forever. I have to continue to remind people to remind me of things. It's the only way to be sure I will remember. As far as what I said, I was freshly off the excitement of an unexpected change in current. If I gave the impression we will now get and have a whole bunch more tournaments next year, that was the excitement (and lack of sleep) talking, not what is left of smart Dan.

I was bummed a little to see someone posted a great example of the 'lake association' problem and then felt he had to delete it because people immediately contacted him personally telling him his topic wasn't relevant - shame on whoever who did that - anything like this can lead to individual harassment which is something I take extremely seriously. Any question of possible harassment of one member by another can lead to removal from GreatLakesBass.com as this involves a risk to keeping my business running and risk from various laws. I will tend to overreact on these types of incidents because I cannot afford to do nothing.

So please, continue to treat each other with respect for varying opinions. Everyone has an equal right to express their thoughts and what they believe is relevant to a discussion. It is up to me, and the moderators to work out what follows the rules and what doesn't. Any post can be edited or removed with or without explanation - I appreciate that this is rarely necessary. Pressuring someone into bowing out of the discussion does not magically eliminate an issue that is brought up so please do not do that. Please make sure you read the forum rules often and follow all of them. You have to follow them to remain a member.

I do understand that many people do not want to get into a head-butting contest -  as jcox7 pointed out, we all have better things to do with our time. If a poster decides to remove their own comments, that is their decision. Most of the time something is deleted, it is done so by the person who commented. I do wish to have a website where people feel they can safely share their opinions on this website without creating problems off this website for sure, and preferably that we can all continue to respect each other's opinions and keep things impersonal. More can be accomplished that way.

I have MBN covering my mileage to meetings where I represent them. Delayed reimbursement but better than nothing which is how much I would get done without it. I've been decent to drive lately. As I said, most of the meetings that count are during the week and most people tell me they can't go during the week... I can't do a whole lot about the fact that I have other things I should also be doing with my time so I'm not going to be repeating a lot of what I have already stated. I think I've stated everything I need to already on the topics brought up since the MBN meeting. I have to get some website work done or I won't be going to any meetings or writing any papers.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on April 25, 2013, 04:30:53 PM
One last thing on here - if anyone has missed me saying this before, I almost always oppose regulations that make enforcement easier at the expense of the more numerous good people who just want to fish (or hunt). I have a todo list already built of other things I would like to tackle if things keep heading in the right direction, but I do not need anyone telling me to do more faster. I will most likely continue to advise those people if they want it done right/sooner/smarter/etc. that they are welcome to do it themselves and good luck.

Like all of you, I have to make a living and pay my bills first. This stuff is very time-consuming and when I can't mentally, physically or economically work on this stuff, I won't be working on it. I will be trying to work to pay my bills first as I should. I would also like to go fishing a little more once in a while too. That would be very nice.

If someone really wants to help, drive over to Lansing and fix my truck brakes! ;D Not having my boat since last May or my truck since last July has been unhealthy for my emotional stability - so watch out! ;D
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: Lightningboy on April 25, 2013, 05:58:25 PM
Not too take a left turn here, but what's the scoop on why the boat or truck are not running?  I'm a long way from Lansing, but PM me; I got a few connections... ;)

Not having your rides working sucks.

BTW- I'm sure I'm among Al Gore's top ten carbon footprint offenders... ;D
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season
Post by: djkimmel on April 25, 2013, 07:35:05 PM
So is he, apparently...
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season for everyone else
Post by: Waterfoul on April 25, 2013, 10:04:53 PM
So we still can't hold a tournament until nearly June according to your proposal.  As I hear it the deputy Director of the MDNR wants a proposal to further tournament opportunities in Michigan, and yet I don't see any proposals mentioning it.

Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season for everyone else
Post by: ROI Outdoors on April 26, 2013, 11:01:36 AM
Quote from: Waterfoul on April 25, 2013, 10:04:53 PM
So we still can't hold a tournament until nearly June according to your proposal.  As I hear it the deputy Director of the MDNR wants a proposal to further tournament opportunities in Michigan, and yet I don't see any proposals mentioning it.



That is correct Mike.  There will be alternate proposals submitted by other groups on the WRSC.....
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season POLL
Post by: djkimmel on April 26, 2013, 06:21:09 PM
Quote from: Waterfoul on April 25, 2013, 10:04:53 PM
So we still can't hold a tournament until nearly June according to your proposal.  As I hear it the deputy Director of the MDNR wants a proposal to further tournament opportunities in Michigan, and yet I don't see any proposals mentioning it.

To make sure people who read this have an accurate representation of the two Michigan B.A.S.S. Nation (MBN) proposals discussed recently in this thread and posted in the proposal information thread - Michigan Bass Season for everyone else (http://www.greatlakesbass.com/forum/index.php?topic=18229.0) - the 2 proposals are the official positions of the Michigan B.A.S.S. Nation (MBN). The board voted unanimously to approve them after a number of meetings and discussions with the MDNR and other parties beginning before April 2012, along with board discussion before the board vote on 4/21. They are not 'my' proposals. I am on the MDNR Warmwater Resources Steering Committee representing the MBN as their conservation person.

In addition, the MDNR Deputy Director has not asked for any proposal at any time that I am aware of. He told me at the Conservation Roundtable meeting on March 15 in Grayling that he 'would think bass tournaments would be a good way to boost our natural resources economy' and asked if he could come speak to the MBN members. This was very good to hear from an MDNR employee. I was excited about a suddenly potentially brighter future for bass fishing in Michigan including bass tournament anglers.

When I asked the MDNR Deputy Director at the well-attended MBN on 4/21 about what he said to me previously, he explained that the MDNR was looking at a number of potentially beneficial activities "involving activities and group activities like that, even just groups of visiting anglers," that might help Michigan's natural resource economy. He did not say anything about a season proposal, or a proposal for more bass tournaments.

The present MBN bass season proposal comes from previous discussions with MDNR Fisheries Division staff, particularly a discussion with the MDNR Fisheries Chief at the same March 15 Conservation Roundtable in Grayling where I was asked to write a 2-3 page bass season proposal supported by MBN to bring to the June 17 Warmwater Resources Steering Committee meeting in Lansing. There was discussion about the process being less uncomfortable and long as the last time, but no mention of bass tournaments.

In previous discussions with MDNR Fisheries Division, we were told the MDNR preferred any proposal would be about more bass fishing not bass tournaments. All of this was shared with the MBN Board. Some of the previous discussions involved myself and MDNR Fisheries Division staff; some involved myself, MBN President Paul Sacks and MDNR Fisheries Division staff. While some positive statements have been made about bass tournaments as of March 15 by MDNR persons, no one in the MDNR has asked me or MBN to submit a proposal for more bass tournaments. If someone else has been asked for that by someone in the MDNR, I'm not aware of, or involved in that request.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season POLL
Post by: djkimmel on April 26, 2013, 06:25:25 PM
Quote from: Waterfoul on April 25, 2013, 10:04:53 PM
So we still can't hold a tournament until nearly June according to your proposal.  As I hear it the deputy Director of the MDNR wants a proposal to further tournament opportunities in Michigan, and yet I don't see any proposals mentioning it.


Are you a member of the Michigan B.A.S.S. Nation?
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season POLL
Post by: edyer on April 28, 2013, 10:25:38 AM
Other than having a Bassmaster and FLW membership, I am not politically involved with any fishing organizations. I appreciate and give thanks to you that are. I am a teacher and coach and try to be an ambassador to the the sports of hunting and fishing that I try to do as much as I can. I have been making a spring trip to Missouri every spring since 1980. They have no closed season on bass fishing. This past spring I fished both Bull Shoals and Table Rock Lake. If Arkansas or Missouri's season was closed like we are in Michigan, they would not have received by tourism dollars that i spent on lodging, fishing tackle, gasoline, and licenses. If we had an open all year season here, I believe more of my dollars and dollars of other Michigan anglers as well as those from Canada and other neighboring states, would be spent here in Michigan. If not an open all year season(which I think is the best choice), at least opening the catch and keep season on the same date as walleye, pike, and the trout seasons. Thanks again to those of you trying to make changes. Time to go fishing.
Title: Re: Michigan Bass Season POLL
Post by: djkimmel on April 28, 2013, 03:45:30 PM
Thanks for sharing your opinions and feelings Ed. I especially like the 'Time to go fishing' part! :)

I have always been, and always will be, in favor of year-round fishing seasons for many, many reasons. It does seem like more anglers are more accepting of that general idea today.

Still, I receive frequent communication from anglers who don't want to see any more people on 'their' lake. So, it's not everyone. We may find out this year, or shortly thereafter, how many people are ready for more.