This is a great comment posting from the owner of Bass Cat boats reflecting on consumer demand and business decisions as seen from his eyes as a Family boat company owner..How much boat and tackle do we really need???
BCB
From: Rick Pierce, Bass Cat Boats
Last week jyarb put up a very nice question as to our sport becoming too "elitist"? He then answered it in short order. http://www.wmi.org/multi_board...00979
This one is not short, though it is a position. No one is wrong on this and jyarb's post gave us a window to put this through. Sorry to be long, though these are our thoughts
In the early 1990's I personally competed in the BASS Top 100 (original Elites) with a 17' Caracal and a 150 XR series. Of course BASS had the 150 HP limitation and most were running 19' models with a few 20' and 18' models thrown in. Sure it was fast and I totally enjoyed it, though would a Pro angler even think about using a 17' boat in the Elites today? No and there are many reasons.
BASS changed the game with the move from a 150 rating to a 250 rating. Which we still feel is faster than some individuals are capable of handling is certain situations. Though we were selling over 70% 200 and larger engines at that time. BASS was following a trend, and we all wanted bigger rigs. Plus a 150 could be a potential problem on a loaded 20' model at Erie, Ontario or Saint Clair with the wind blowing.
Tackle storage and needs for gear are a premium, and these larger boats have more gear storage. The argument could be made that they need to restrict the gear they carry and that would be a part of the sport. Golf restricts the clubs you can carry in the bag.
This topic came up with an aspiring FLW angler last week in Virginia. The young man (name withheld) is watching the Bass Fan comments and feels he drank the Kool-Ade too soon, openly and willingly, of course he is young. Though now he is reassessing his present direction and can't just scale back.
When we were all young we showed up with whatever we had. My first fishing rig was a Johnson 70 and a 16' Deluxe Tournament model many men would give their ___ for then. The next tournament rig was an 85 hp Merc. on that 16' 64" beam Deluxe Tournament model, in my first BCA event in mid 1970's. And yes most were moving on to the 115, 135, 140 and even 150 engines then. From there I graduated to a 1600 Vee with a 115 Mercury and moved on to those 150 engines.
In the mid 1980's I moved back to a 16' 9" Margay and a 115 Mariner tower of power in line 6 for a spring season. Even then I got lots of eyes and comments at Redman and other events with a "baby boat" as they called it. SO, even then we expected more and the comments were unwarranted, as well as unsolicited. It though did a fine job and I managed to cash a few checks in that rig. I took the rashing well as I could have chosen a Pantera and a 200, though I would have had a Caracal by choice.
Still comments on opinions were made and they would have set less positively on an outside industry or younger angler pinching his pennies to get what he could afford. That same setup of a Margay and 115 Mariner was also Greg Hackney's first fiberglass ride.
In my conversation last weekend with the young angler, he started with a 19' and 200 rigged Pantera II model that most any 40 year old working angler would love to have. His father had a 225 BCB Jaguar we believe, though he began his move to pro angling from the top so to speak.
Even today we see the college youth wanting to start with what Dad has and Dad earned it over the years. So the process is upside down.
In those 70's, 80's and even early 90's years, showing up with a 1/2 ton single cab truck and 2x WD was fine, and many with a V6 engine no less. Though today we all think we have to have the, suburban, the extended cab 4x4 or even a diesel monster with tons of power. Take your pick and put your name here ________. When is the last time you saw a Dodge, Ford or Chevrolet family car pull a boat to the ramp? Though it was common till the late 80's.
If Mike Iaconelli showed up with a 115 Opti on a Sabre, it might change the tone some? Though if Butch Tucker shows up with a 115 Opti on a 188 Ranger, he would throw a penalty flag in the air and everyone wonder about his financial position. Of course when Rick Clunn showed up with an aluminum rig, it did not really change the world we live in, and Jeff McG. and David Ashcraft did not really set the tone fishing from their aluminum boats. Though probably the right campaign has not been run yet. Though would Mike Iaconelli risk some success in doing that? Possibly so! Just as we all did when we started. We had to think about our fuel consumption as many only had baby tanks. We had 19.8 gallons going way back,. Though a 12 or 16 gallon load of fuel was not uncommon. One of the major brands only had twin 12 or 18 (24 or 36) gallons tanks for years, when we had twin 27 tanks (54).
Right now we have two rigs built for my father (Ron Pierce), one is a Sabre with a 90 hp carb'd Merc, and the other is a Sabre with a 115 Optimax. We have offered a Sabre Day Tripper package in the last few years that sells bone stock with a 115 in the $20k plus or minus range. Though we have not sold very many, and very, very few to be honest. They just don't seem to want that little package.
Though we must all learn to accept those younger anglers, encourage them to have a used rig, and a used truck. Bite our tongues and teach them to work their way up. A 25 year old just out of college should not place a burden on his family of a new truck, house, and a $40 to 50k boat. Though we see it all too often. Get your youth started with a lesser rig, and let them earn their way up the ladder.
Were you unhappy in going to the lake with a 115 engine on your _____(brand here) 16', 17' or 18' boat? No you were tickled to have it. And so will they be!
Of course from our side we have to compete and if they are going to make that decision, we have to unfortunately be in that decision process.
Many of you know we have often redirected you off of a 175, a 200 and even a 250 if we felt you were not a candidate for that set up. Which is another reason why the Pantera IV model was not built larger by inches for a 225, and only rates a 200. We wanted to offer a more affordable overall rig, that was representative of those larger 250 warrior rigs.
We also only built the Advantage Elite series consoles where nothing larger than those X5 and 700 series units would go in dash, to regulate the price you pay. Though we have been hammered on that one as people frequently say it should be up to them if they want to spend $5000 on electronics in a $30,000 boat.
From rods to reels, rain gear, accessories, LCRS, vehicles and even our bait selection we have raised the bar. And while it has long been time to evaluate the sport, there will still be a need for those $50k rigs for those who can afford them. The acceptance of the lesser packages is the threshold we seem to have trouble crossing.
Though we all need to help!
Rick Pierce
Bass Cat Boats
Good post, Brian. So, I'm not the only one who has been been caught-up trying to "keep up with the Jones' (or Reese's, VanDam's, etc)."
The other week I was telling Paula how much I would like a 22 foot ride for the long Erie runs and she looked at me kinda sideways. I asked "what?" and she said "Remember how much fun you had running the river in the old Venture (a 15'10" model with a 65 Suzuki)? That's when you went to have fun and you caught fish! Now, you have a very nice Champion but still want more... You're getting too caught-up in this." It kinda set me back and now this reinforces what is most important.
Scott
Started tourney fishing in a 14' Glastron with a Merc. 50. Cashed some checks too. Years later stepped up to a 17' Tracker Pro with a Mariner 40 hp. Great little boat and loved every minute of it. Several years later I moved into my present boat, 18' Triton with a Merc 150 on it. I see myself in this boat for many years to come. But man do I miss being able to fish the river like I did in the other boats...
Great point made on how the kids want everything today their parents have worked 30 years for. I started with a canoe which I had for many years. Then I graduated to a Bass Tracker with a 25hp Johnson. I used to love drawing the #1 tournament start position and finding a way to hide as everyone blasted by me. Now I own a Tracker Tournament 18. A little over 18' with an 87" beam and a 90hp Merc. All for under $17,000. Its a great inland tournament boat with lots of room. Of course it would be nice to have the Ranger or Bass Cat, but I'd rather buy a rental home instead to make money.
he makes a good point, but if you want to use 20K for the baseline of a "1st boat".... heck, you can get a lightly used 4-5 year old boat in the 19-21' range with a 200+ for 15-20k easy, especially in this economy. Why anyone would buy a new 17'/115 at that price when a faster, more comfortable boat can be had for half that - is beyond me. If there's anything i learned since buying my first boat - its get the biggest, fastest boat you can afford. Maybe thats a 17'/115, maybe its 21'/250 - if I had 20k to spend on a boat, you can be sure i'd be in something a lot bigger than a 17/115 though.
Also - i don't see how you can fault the Pros for running top-of-line rigs either - overkill or not. They are competing for 100s of thousands of dollars and the boat companies in many cases are handing them boats to use for nothing (or close to it). I'm competing for 500$ or a grand or 2 - something like that - so i don't quite put myself in the same situation.
my first boat was 14' jon boat with a jet motor i bought from my old boss whom i worked for in college. i spent 24k on my bass boat - and in hindsight, wish i would have spent the time to find a good used one! Oh well, i will make the one i have last now (probably until i'm 40 :D) cuz thats the bed i made.
He is right though, it seems like now everyone wants to be "the pro". To do that you gotta have the big rig, the fancy shirt, the high dollar gear, the big truck, the million decals, the logo'd visor, the 300$ glasses. etc (everything but the fish hahaha). Now -a lot of these guys are great fisherman, no doubt about it - but there's a lot of posers in there too. Like if i dressed up like that - i'd be a poser. ;D
In the end, we just need to realize its not the blling that makes the fisherman, its the weighin bag.
Good topic.
I have a 16' Lund with a 25hp mariner. My Step dad gave it to me as a xmas present. It doesnt have near the storage or the hp of a bass boat. But it is just enough to fish tourneys. I am always jealous of the nice boats I fish with, but I dont believe that makes them a better fisherman, just more comfortable and stylish :P.
Looking to upgrade to a 186 triton next year. But for now my "old lady" wont let me get a newer boat. And she wont let me sell my Harley. So this year... I'll be the little guy again. ;D
Tight Lines!
Kris
I have a Ranger z20 with a 225 - why? because I can afford it and I use it a LOT. I also bought this boat after I was 40, well established both financially and with family. Took care of the important things first, then I felt I could indulge my hobby a bit.
I started with a used 16ft Tracker Deep V with a 40hp and I used it a lot and loved that boat. Other than storage sucked, livewells were problematic, batteries didn't last... but the boat is still in the family down in Florida.
I do see the issue with the younger generation wanting it all now - I think that those problems became overly apparent with the mortgage and credit crisis. No one wants to save or wait until they truly can afford it.
Younger anglers shouldn't feel embarrassed to own a boat that fits there financial situation. I make sure I let people know that I really like their boat and equipment regardless of the cost. They need to be proud of their boat and their situation. On the other hand, I'm not going to feel embarrassed about owning a boat that is well within my means and provides me some great experiences to fish and meet people. We need to remember that we aren't all in the same boat here - pun intended.
I just had the chance to watch last weeks episode of "The Bass Pros" and the question for Rick Clunn was what was his opinion of a "tournament boat". He used his personal boat as his first choice for 99% of the waters around the country; it is a 18' Tracker V-hull with a Merc 150. He made the comparisons between that ride and the bigger 19'-21' modified V's that most people "think" they need. At no point did he say a negative word about the bigger boats, their usefulness, or the people that use them. He did say: "There are misconceptions (out there) that to be a good tournament angler, or to fish big tournaments, you need a $40-50k boat, it has to be 20'-21' long, and that simply isn't true." That was followed up by his mentioning that, and I'll paraphrase, if you're fishing the big water like Erie or Ontario, buy the big boat if you want, he just doesn't want the "young angler" to feel like they need the big fancy rig to be able to fish.
Also, as for my original post, I was not saying that in the near future I'm not going to get at least a 21'er or that my current 19.5' is inadequate. I was merely adding an example of how easy it is to get wrapped up in "wanting more." Maybe cause I'm in a spot where I could go buy a bigger new boat this afternoon, if I wished, is one reason I'd like a 21, mostly it is about room and safety for me and my family. I don't think anyone was saying that if you have worked hard, taken care of your family, you still should feel "embarrassed" for having a "bigger" ride.
Wow, Great topic. As many of you know, this is going to be the first year I tourney fish. I have never been wealthy, but I dream. I'm almost 53 yrs old and have never had more than a rowboat, just what I was raised with. When I decided to get into tourneys, I bought what I could afford at the time, an 87 Nitro, that aint too pretty. It gets me on the water, can keep up with most boats, and is WAY better to fish out of than a rowboat. Yes, I dream of the 60-70K boats all the time, but I know my limits. My master plan is to upgrade every two years. I will put some money into my Nitro, make it as nice as I can for the next guy, and hopefully not lose much money in two years. All the time saving for the next one. I hate payments. I'm sure if I pinch somewhere, I could get the loan and buy a new boat. Sometimes, I'm tempted. For now, I'm going to stick to my guns, and fish out of my antique, and not care who laughs at me.
I saw this episode, completely agree and I thought it was great. I think he pointed out that the class of boat he was sitting in, is a adequate boat to fish tournaments in. I think a lot of people wrongly assume otherwise.
If your in big money tourneys and doing well, then I think you'd be silly not fishing out of a boat that would increase your winnings significantly through the boat and motor incentive programs. But that is a very small number of people that should even worry about that.
My comments about having the boat I want wasn't directed at any of the previous posts, I was just making a personal statement. I'm under the impression that fishing out of my current boat does make me a better angler as there are plenty of advantages of compared to the previous aluminum boat - stealth, boat position, stability - loads of things that give me confidence and improved capabilities (not to mention fun). Are they worth $30K more? Sure - why not!
Quote from: River Rat on January 21, 2010, 02:08:01 PM
I just had the chance to watch last weeks episode of "The Bass Pros" and the question for Rick Clunn was what was his opinion of a "tournament boat". He used his personal boat as his first choice for 99% of the waters around the country; it is a 18' Tracker V-hull with a Merc 150. He made the comparisons between that ride and the bigger 19'-21' modified V's that most people "think" they need. At no point did he say a negative word about the bigger boats, their usefulness, or the people that use them. He did say: "There are misconceptions (out there) that to be a good tournament angler, or to fish big tournaments, you need a $40-50k boat, it has to be 20'-21' long, and that simply isn't true." That was followed up by his mentioning that, and I'll paraphrase, if you're fishing the big water like Erie or Ontario, buy the big boat if you want, he just doesn't want the "young angler" to feel like they need the big fancy rig to be able to fish.
Also, as for my original post, I was not saying that in the near future I'm not going to get at least a 21'er or that my current 19.5' is inadequate. I was merely adding an example of how easy it is to get wrapped up in "wanting more." Maybe cause I'm in a spot where I could go buy a bigger new boat this afternoon, if I wished, is one reason I'd like a 21, mostly it is about room and safety for me and my family. I don't think anyone was saying that if you have worked hard, taken care of your family, you still should feel "embarrassed" for having a "bigger" ride.
I finally got my own first bass boat ('93 Ranger 482VS, Merc 150) last year at the age of 38. Shared a boat with my dad for 10 years before that (16.5' Crestliner) and mostly fished tournaments with friends with bass boats. Before that my dad and I had a 15' jon boat decked out for both fishin and duck hunting. I, too, waited till the family and my business were established/secure. And even so, I got an older well-maintained used boat that I could pay cash for and still have money to buy accessories, etc. Lots of good points in the article as well as other posts. We all 'do what we can'. I think these economic times will humble a lot of people. If one good thing comes from it I hope people learn the old-fashion lesson of the value of a buck, and how to save/spend it wisely. I'm thankful for Dutch parents who instilled that in me - never been behind in finances in my life and its not because I make a ton of income. OK, off my soap box now...
T - I was not "challenging" your personal statement or choice. I was only trying to add to the conversation and further elaborate on my own post. I will say this: this particular topic has made me do a lot of thinking...
For the "youth" aspect, I can remember how bad I wanted to be in the "cool" bass boats while my Dad had a 12' Mirrorcraft with a 15hp Johnson. I hate to admit this but one day a bunch of my friends and cousins were all going fishing with our Dad's and uncle's on Pickerel Lake in Newaygo, well I told my Dad I wanted to go fishing with "so-n-so" cause they had a bass boat and we didn't. Needless to say my Dad said "OK" and ended up staying back at the campground. I found out later that he was crushed that the boat was more important to me than fishing with him... which was not my intention. That memory hurts me even now typing it out. Kids will be kids, obviously. I just don't want them to think that they have to have the big shiny rig to be happy.
Scott
As the 24 year old "kid" wanting to get into a 18'er with a 150 or so motor on it and still renting an apartment this topic couldn't come at a better time. I've been talking to my wife all winter about getting a boat but she is not so compelled as she thinks our own house would be a wiser way to spend our savings. After reading all this and having a perfectly good (but old and dull) 16'sylvan with 50 horse johnson I think I'll hold out a little longer and make the hopefully smarter decision.
Yous wont have to worry bout this much longer as the asion carps will spread on through the big water an up into the rivers distroying all other fish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Hunlee is saddened by this but we must face facts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Them carps are no good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
hunlee
Great topic and one that I personally Mill over everyday..A constant in my mind. Im one of the young guys..And unfortuanately i have to worry about the almighty dollar everytime i sign up for a tournament. I was fortunate enough to choose a carrer that pays great money when things are rolling. Im a union Bricklayer and every dime i have comes from the sweat of my brow and hard work. I bought the boat that i currently still run 2003 skeeter 19' w 150 yami when i was 20. Ive been through the rigors and have worked my way up. As i stand these days there isnt a minute that goes by that i dont wonder what i could do if I had that big 21' rig and all the electronics in the world. I learned to fish and now i wanna step up and fish the bigger things but i just cant see spennding all the money needed to just compete..Let alone cash a check. I fished the BFL last year as a boater for the first time.Never seen Lake St.Clair or Lake Erie until i went there to practice. And i didnt fair that great. But i will say this that if there is anyone out there that has knowledge of fishing and can just put the dock talk about what you need to have to win in one ear and out the other and go out there and find what will work for u and you limitations you will do just fine come the end of the year when all the points are tallied. There were only 2 tourneys i went into last year that i felt deep inside that i had a chance of getting a check and 1 that i shouldve had a check in that i thought i was on nothing. Lost fish cost me on that one. Burt and Mullet is a test of skill and strategy. I really enjoy sight fishing and the strategy that goes into it.. For those of you out there that think its not a skill or theres no strategy into it come try it at that level sometime. The second was an area in the Detroit river that i felt i could get 16-17 lbs on the first day of the super and guarantee myself a payday if day 2 never panned out or i fished the area out.. Just never got the big bites i thought i would get. Ended w 13 lbs and a trip to the Regional. I guess the point im getting at is that though I might not be the biggest name you hear of because I lack the boat and electronics. Doesnt mean that I dont have the talent to win at that level just not the Bank account. Im ok with that at this point in time. I was so proud of myself for what I accomplished no matter if I cashed a check or not just to know that i had what i took too just compete made my year.
Well I bought my first boat last year 07' 19.5' triton w/ a 200 and I had just turned 27. I love the boat and if I didn't live a block from lake erie I'd never need anything more but after seeing the waves erie and st. clair can dishout I really would like a 21'-22' boat and maybe even a walleye boat. But at the same time my boat is payed for and I'm always debating with myself if I should get the bigger boat. Boat payment or no boat payment???, that is the question.
Good point..no payments are nice.. Let me tell u this dont doubt what you can do in that boat.. It doesnt matter if u have a 21or 18 ft boat if you dont know how to drive in those big waves it makes no difference. Just ask about half the field i saw on the Mississippi river this fall at the Regional. I was passing 21 foot rangers like they were standing still. Alot of it has to do with the driver and confidence u have.. Trust me you could tell that day who has been on lake erie and was from the Michigan division.. If we didnt catch too many fish atleast we could impress u with our boat driving skills.
That is for sure I grew up in wisconsin and I've fished the mississippi many times along with all other inland lakes and I thought I knew what rough water was. I'll be the first to tell you that I've become 10X better driver this year than I ever was and I feel like I can drive through almost anything. I was in 8' this year and I'll say I don't want to be in them ever again but I can also say I didn't spear one wave. I know my boat can handle alot but I keep thinking I could handle that much more in a larger boat. So for me the debate still continues......
Great read, very perperplexing topic. I think the head on the nail with increasing tourney costs is boat availablity and the perception that the boat makes the angler. Similiar to how TV/Movies portray the "average person" the bass community has started to gain a "hollywood" perspective of what they should fishing out of. 5 years ago there wasn't even a tenth of the amount of bass fishing shows or tournaments televised - I'm not blaming BASS/ESPN but they sure haven't lowered anyones perceptions of what is "needed" to be competitive.
There is enough used inventory on the market today to support those looking for an upgrade but the problem is a major part of that inventory is everywhere else but here in Michigan. We could use a few more marina's up here selling and servicing bass boats - more competition equals better service and an increased availabilty of boats with more competitive pricing. I'm not implying that the dealers we have don't do an excellent job but I think they themselves would benefit from a few more players in the market, its business economics 101. Can you correlate the scarcity of used/new inventory here in Michigan to the scarcity of places that sell and service bass boats? Not sure but it would be interesting to look into.
Tournament Fishing is probably the most costly sport/hobby out there today so what can be done to slow the inflating costs or even lower them? One aspect that would completely change the game here in Michigan is extending our season or better yet keeping it open year round - this isn't rocket science and yet it seems we have turned this debate into something that rivals the Dems Health Care Bill. Being smack dab in the Freshwater Capital of the World I think we have the opportunity to do something about the rising costs of tournament fishing - how we go about doing that is the question we really need to answer so why not start the brainstorming now.
That whole tangent aside it sure is fun to show up in "tin boat" and cash checks, its hard to watch guys that have spent $50000 come up short week in and week out - when its all send and done it all boils down to maximizing the Return On every tournament Investment and the boat part of the investment is by far the most complicated to get right. All that said I hope to be the owner of a 2003 193 Champ w/200 VMAX on Monday so keep your fingers crossed for a brother! ;) ;)
Quite a few years ago there was this guy that would show up to every tournament on Cass Lake. He and his partner would fish out of this crappy looking 18 foot jon boat. He would whoop everyones butt out there. I often wonder what ever happened to that guy. He would also show up to Kent and do the same. My point is that the boat doesn't make the angler........a weigh in bag with a limit of fish does. I think I am quoting someone from a previous post on this subject. Any way this is a great topic.
It also follows my view point on entry fees. My view is that no inland lake should have a $100 plus entry fee. On big water.........yes. That has always been the norm. But people still pay $100 plus for inland lake tournaments. So I may be the "Lone Ranger" on this subject that feels that way. It used to be many years ago that everything on big water was $100. Inland lake Tournaments were in the 50 to 75 dollar range. Week nite NBAA is $40 a boat roughly. Tuesday Nite Bellevilles are $50 a boat. Weekend NBAA One on One I think was $40 a guy last year....maybe $60. Don't remember.
BD ;D
Quote from: UAWBigDog on January 22, 2010, 08:43:57 AM
Quite a few years ago there was this guy that would show up to every tournament on Cass Lake. He and his partner would fish out of this crappy looking 18 foot jon boat. He would whoop everyones butt out there. I often wonder what ever happened to that guy. He would also show up to Kent and do the same. My point is that the boat doesn't make the angler........a weigh in bag with a limit of fish does. I think I am quoting someone from a previous post on this subject. Any way this is a great topic.
It also follows my view point on entry fees. My view is that no inland lake should have a $100 plus entry fee. On big water.........yes. That has always been the norm. But people still pay $100 plus for inland lake tournaments. So I may be the "Lone Ranger" on this subject that feels that way. It used to be many years ago that everything on big water was $100. Inland lake Tournaments were in the 50 to 75 dollar range. Week nite NBAA is $40 a boat roughly. Tuesday Nite Bellevilles are $50 a boat. Weekend NBAA One on One I think was $40 a guy last year....maybe $60. Don't remember.
BD ;D
I agree 100% on inland tournament fees. $50 to $75 should be the limit. The NBAA one on one's are a great deal for the tournament minded fisherman who likes to fish alone(or doesn't have any friends ;D.)
DD
Like you and I.................. :o
BD ;D
I think the high cost of boats & equipment might discourage new anglers from getting into tx fishing. As much as I love my boat, there is no way I would take on a boat payment - its just not worth it. My first boat was an old (1984) Pantera with a 150 that would run most of the time. :-\' Boats like that do GREAT on inland water - no need to spend big $$ unless you can afford it. Now, for the big water - I do think the boat does give you an advantage and - sad but true - it can be dangerous to run around out there in an older boat with less floatation / safety.
I think this is probably the first time ebond and I agree on something. Not to say hes wrong or right all the time, we just have different opinions. ;D
My thoughts have always been that the weeknight 3 to 4 hour tournaments should be lower and the 8 hour tournaments should be at least $100 no matter where they are held. If your putting in a full day of tournament fishing on any given lake the reward should be higher. I don't think inland lakes or Lk StClair or Lk Erie or Lk Michigan has anything to do with entree fees it should be whether they are a weekend or weeknight tournament. Most people are going to put in alot more time prefishing, hotels, gas, etc for a weekend tournament no matter where it is being held compared to a weeknight tournament. Look down south most of the tournaments held down there are $150 to $300 for entree fees for there weekend tournaments.
The weeknight tournaments are meant for those that have other financial obligations, the working mans league, and the weekend tournaments are for the little more serious anglers and are alot more competitive.
Quote from: ebond on January 22, 2010, 04:26:58 PM
Tournament Profitability and Cost
Many conservative assumptions were used to simplify this analysis.
Tournaments paybacks are assumed to be 80% of the total entry fees. The fuel cost to tow a boat to the lake and operate the boat (including outboard oil) is estimated at $40 per day, based on a location roughly 30 miles from home, and roughly 30 minutes of outboard operation. There are no additional costs associated with owning the truck and boat, or other assorted expenses, such as membership fees, tackle, lodging, etc.
Here are some examples of the profitability of fishing tournaments with various entry fees.
| $40 entry fee | X 25 entries = | $1000 total entry fees |
| $40 expense | X 25 boats = | $1000 added expenses |
| $80 spent | X 25 entries = | $2000 spent |
| | $800 payback |
| | 60% net loss |
| / | / | / |
|
| $80 entry fee | X 25 entries = | $2000 total entry fees |
| $40 expense | X 25 boats = | $1000 added expenses |
| $120 spent | X 25 entries = | $3000 spent |
| | $1600 payback |
| | 47% net loss |
| / | / | / |
|
|
| $120 entry fee | X 25 entries = | $3000 total entry fees |
| $40 expense | X 25 boats = | $1000 added expenses |
| $160 spent | X 25 entries = | $4000 spent |
| | $2400 payback |
| | 40% net loss |
Therefore, higher entry fee tournaments are more profitable, or, more accurately, less unprofitable, when considered on a individual or daily basis.
Here are some examples of average expenses and winnings and the average costs of 24 days of fishing, including practice days, for tournaments with various entry fees.
| 12 events X $80 | ($40 entry + $40 expense) = | $960 tournaments |
| 12 practice days | @ $40 per day= | $480 added expenses |
| average winnings | @ $32 per team ($800/25) X 12 = | $384 avg annual winnings |
| / | / | $1056 avg annual loss |
| / | / | / |
| 8 events X $120 | ($80 entry + $40 expense) = | $960 tournaments |
| 16 practice days | @ $40 per day= | $640 added expenses |
| average winnings | @ $64 per team ($1600/25) X 8 = | $512 avg annual winnings |
| / | / | $1088 avg annual loss |
| / | / | / |
| 6 events X $160 | ($120 entry + $40 expense) = | $960 tournaments |
| 18 practice days | @ $40 per day= | $720 added expenses |
| average winnings | @ $96 per team ($2400/25) X 6 = | $576 avg annual winnings |
| / | / | $1104 avg annual loss |
| / | / | / |
Therefore, higher entry fee tournaments allow more practice time with roughly the same total cost as lower entry fee tournaments.
The total cost of tournament fishing has less to do with entry fees, and more to do with the daily cost of fishing, boat and truck expenses, lake location and size, miscellaneous expenses, and winnings. Regardless of other expenses, I prefer higher entry fees for the opportunity for bigger winnings.
Unless a tournament angler has a free boat and truck, and does not need to practice, and wins money on a regular basis to cover fuel costs and entry fees, he will almost never earn a profit! Any way you look at it, tournament fishing is fun, and expensive.
Bond 8)
Those are great figures if your a tournament director. But bottom line. As an angler if I can spend $40 and have the opportunity to realize winnings of $400 to $500, I'm good with that.
Quote from: Return On Investment Outdoors on January 22, 2010, 12:04:33 AM
All that said I hope to be the owner of a 2003 193 Champ w/200 VMAX on Monday so keep your fingers crossed for a brother! ;) ;)
H*LL yeah, buy used! And if you're willing to drive out of state all the better deal you'll get. There's a Champ in TX I'd love to have, just can't justify having two of the same rig.
but on the overall topic of what it takes to be competitive in tx's, it takes confidence, not a nice boat. You can make money out of a 14' Sea Nymph with a 9hp, a 18' war eagle with a 105 jet, or a 202 ChampioN with a 225EFI. It's a problem in society that has kids thinking they need the newest baddest rig out there to compete. I think of it this way, a .22 will make you just as dead as .416 Rigby.
My $.02.
Matt
with all the new circuts and existing ones it will be interesting to see boat counts this year. with NBAA, KLBA, ROI, BBLC, HVBA, Chiller Thriller I counted 39 events on Kent lake this year. Pontiac is another lake with a lot of events also.
Lets face it.............some of these lakes are going to get "pounded" this year!!!! :o
BD ;D
that is just like jordan lake at lake odessa. last year there were 62 tournaments on this body of water that is only 375 acres and it has been this way for a long time and it just keeps producing fish....but te fish must know evey bait and everybody in the boat by name...but i am still waiting for it to shut down and turn into the dead sea...
Quote from: ebond on January 23, 2010, 06:08:36 PM
Quote from: Durand Dan on January 22, 2010, 07:15:10 PM
As an angler if I can spend $40 and have the opportunity to realize winnings of $400 to $500, I'm good with that.
For $40 you can go to lake and fish for a day. You can't win any money without paying the entry fee, in addition!
Quote from: Durand Dan on January 22, 2010, 07:15:10 PM
Those are great figures if your a tournament director.
You may want to trim the quoted material when you quote someone. Who wants to see that entire report more than once?
Please explain how the analysis helps tournament directors. I did the analysis, and I'm a director. Thanks. 8)
The analysis had absolutely no value to me. So I assumed it must have had value to someone, maybe directors. And if you read between the lines (which I'm astonished you didn't) you would have realized the $40 I alluded to was the tournament fee.
As far as trimming the quoted material, I replied to facts stated.
When going to a tournament on an inland lake with an entry fee or lets say $50, I don't spend another $50 for any other expenses. I will probably use the gas I already have in the boat which is usually about a half a tank or so. Then there is gas in the truck. Which is probably over half a tank. So essentially I may spend a total of $50 because I already spent the money to fill the boat or truck on another trip. Chances are I spent the money in the truck going to my 40 hour a week job. That is why my reasoning of spending $100 plus for an inland lake tournament is what it is.
On the subject within this post of lakes getting "pounded" the way they do..........it is only a matter of time before they are effected by the pressure negatively. We can only hope that will not be the case.
BD ;D
i don't count expenses unless its an overnight stay or out of town trip.
i go fishing when i want to go fishing regardless of if there is a tournament or not. if they outlawed tournaments, i would spend the same amount of money on expenses while "just fishing". The only local tournament expense is the entry fee/membership fee/dues.
i guess there is another way to look at the expense...this is a hobby for most of us we are not doing this to make a living and if we were we wouldnt be fishing local tournaments....would the expenses be any more if were snowmobiling , quads, motorcycles, horses or racing probably not because not everything is done in one area so there is drive time over night stays meals on the road, and obviously we try to do them as economically as possible. so tournaments have nothing to do with it because we are going to fish just to justify owning the equipment that we have be it a tounament or not....
I'm not assuming that the boat and truck are free.
I'm saying that whatever it costs me to run my boat and truck for a day on the lake is money spent regardless of a tournament or not. I bass fish because i love to bass fish, not because there are tournaments. Tournaments are an added bonus.
There is the cost of fishing and the cost of tournaments. The cost of fishing for most of us is probably a pretty static number as it is part of our everyday life. We go to the lake, we buy gas, tackle, rods whatever. Its recreation, hobby whatever you want it to be, but like i said, i would spend no less money on fishing related expenses if I did or did not participate in tournaments. If i do a tournament, the only money i've gained or lost is the money i spent to enter the tournament.
if I was driving all over the place for BFL or opens - then yes, i would include those costs. But i'm driving to the same lakes i fish for fun - so my fishing expenses don't change when i do zero tournaments or 20. The only extra money i'm spending is on entry fees - so that is what it costs me to fish tournaments.
Quote from: thedude on January 24, 2010, 03:01:50 PM
The only extra money i'm spending is on entry fees - so that is what it costs me to fish tournaments.
This is what I am talking about. After reading thedude's analysis, he put it pretty simply. That is how I look at tournament fishing. I bass fish because I love to bass fish. Whether tournaments or not..........I would still go bass fishing. The extra expense for me is tournaments. That is why I can't see spending $100 plus on inland lake tournaments. So for me I agree with the quote above.
BD ;D
Quote from: thedude on January 24, 2010, 03:01:50 PM
if I was driving all over the place for BFL or opens - then yes, i would include those costs. But i'm driving to the same lakes i fish for fun - so my fishing expenses don't change when i do zero tournaments or 20. The only extra money i'm spending is on entry fees - so that is what it costs me to fish tournaments.
[/quote]
I would still go bass fishing. The extra expense for me is tournaments. That is why I can't see spending $100 plus on inland lake tournaments. So for me I agree with the quote above.
BD ;D
[/quote]
I guess Im just confused. If your fishing a lake you would go to anyway so the expense of travel doesnt count wouldnt you want to take that extra money and put it in that tournament to win more, since you are going there anyway. I guess I just look at it different. To each his own I guess. :) :) I still say weeknight cheap weekend expensive.
Quote from: JohnBoy on January 24, 2010, 04:05:14 PM
I guess Im just confused. If your fishing a lake you would go to anyway so the expense of travel doesnt count wouldnt you want to take that extra money and put it in that tournament to win more, since you are going there anyway. I guess I just look at it different. To each his own I guess. :) :) I still say weeknight cheap weekend expensive.
Well, not every fishing trip to a lake revolves around tournaments for every individual. I, like many others, enjoy fishing with our wives, girlfriends (probably not the same day as our wives), kids, brothers, dads, nieces, nephews, etc., that do not tournament fish and have no dang desire, yet we still love to spend a day on the water with them enjoying the sport. I like to go to Dale Hollow to fish and visit family twice a year but do not make a point to schedule my trip around the tournament calendar for the BFL Mountain Div.
Also, was this post originally about whether or not we should fish a tournament for the payouts, or if we are already going to fish that lake, or was it about the outrageous costs of boats and equipment that some younger anglers think they need to incur to "compete" across the vast majority of our country?! (Minus our big Great Lakes waters if you want/need to run 30 miles)
very good
let's get back on the subject
I love bass fishing and I fish a LOT (ask anyone who knows me!!). I've never spent a ton of money on the BOAT... the boat doesn't catch the fish. I do however use premium gear (rods, reels, line, etc....). I guarantee the gear in my boat is worth more than the boat itself. BUT, it's taken me many, MANY years to gather all the gear I have.
All that being said I'm in agreement with thedude. I do not count things like gas or oil in my tournament expenses. If I have time to fish a tournament, it means I have that same time to go fishing for fun. In other words... if I wasn't fishing a tournament, I'd be fishing anyway. If I do happen to pre-fish for a tournament (which I don't to a lot of for events on the west side of the state) I usually take someone who doesn't fish as much I do or someone who REALLY WANTS to go fishing but doesn't have the means. So not only do I get to pre-fish the lake, but I get to spend time with someone who may not have had a chance to go fishing at all that day. I love taking people fishing and do it as often as I can. Some of you on this site have gotten phone calls from me asking if you want to head out, often at a moments notice!!
Its all part of the territory - $70,000 or a $10,000 boat you still need a truck to pull the boat to the lake, that truck needs gas (and so does the boat - oil, ect.), once on the water you need rod-reel-line-lures-ect. I think we can all agree that we fish because we enjoy and it and we do tourneys because they substantially increase that enjoyment and add the competitive nature to something we already have fun with. No matter how you stack it tournaments cost money and that cost will continue to rise - fishing in general costs money and that cost will also continue to increase. For anyone thinking the costs of tournament fishing is getting too high but stills goes out a couple of times a week you might want to look at the tax deductible aspect of it - you can't itemize a trip to Grand Traverse for a weekend of fun fishing but you can itemize your expenses on a trip to Grand Traverse for a weekend of fun fishing with a tournament on one of the days. (PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM NOT A CERTIFIED ACCOUNTANT and in no way trying to offer tax advise ;D ;D ;D)
Unless you are sponsored angler fishing a pro circuit the chances of making any substantial profit are slim to none and I think the younger anglers have this perception that every Elite Series Pro is making 6+ figures a year; travel costs and entry fees exceed $100,000 a year and if you look at the payouts plus the sponsorship dollars there are only a handful of guys actually accumulating any amount of wealth. Younger Anglers watch ESPN or WFN and see nothing but 225's or 250's decked out to the max so its only natural for them to want to gravitate towards the higher end equipment - when you add the fact that we are a society that finances everything without evaluating any of the potential risks increasing costs become inevitable. Short of Dave Ramsey being your best friend the only way to truly know these perceptions are misguided are from personal experience or from listening to those who have been around the block a few thousand times.
The younger generations constant search for the biggest & baddest of everything is actually beneficial in way. Somebody has to pay for the New-Overpriced stuff because if they didn't the manufacturers wouldn't really have any reason to innovative and improve the equipment we all need to use, less innovation would lead to a decrease in competition which would bring costs substantially higher than what we currently face. The more the manufacturers push the envelope on their products to beat the competition the more competitive they will be with their pricing and incentives to the end consumer. There are some guys that can afford the best stuff - if I was one of them I would most definitely go all out even if knew the "top of the line" had no effect on being in the "front of the line" when the checks are being handed out. On the flip side if a guy can't afford the best stuff but is fooled into thinking that he has to have all the bells & whistles to even be competitive we share a responsibility to expose the truth and to dispose these notions - every angler that over extends themselves right of the bat is another entry fee lost to the tournament succubus.
On the topic of profit and loss in tournament fishing I think would be interesting to start to database that could actually allocate profit/loss of every tournament scenario - entry fee, memberships, travel costs, pre-fishing costs, time costs, winnings, ect. If you throw in the Lake, date, conditions, # of boats, patterns, ect. - overtime you would be able to evaluate what tournaments and time frames provide the highest potential Return on all of your tournament investments. This might take a little of the fun out of the experience but it sure would help put an end to the seemingly never ending payout/entry fee/circuit debates.
Tournament Turbo Tax 2010 available as an I-Phone App (The Dude - how much would writing that software cost???) Features include: GPS loaded maps, barometric pressure readings, weather conditions, water temp and depth snapshots.
Mike I just read your post while typing this essay, 2010 will be bringing a few West Michigan events that you will most definitely be pre-fishing for - JUNE 6TH Lake Drive you'll need at least a solid day or two to pick out 5 fish that the other 74 boats haven't already claimed.
haha. well - my professional rate is 90 bucks an hour so if you want to put me into that new champ instead, i'd be glad to write if you! ;D
I totally agree with eriedude, Duran Dan and waterfouls statements. That is exactly how I look at it.
Quote from: ebond on January 25, 2010, 11:22:24 AM
But then I remember how exciting it is to be armed to the teeth with some of the best equipment and then pony up some dough for the chance of winning real money competing against other fierce competitors. It's awesome! 8)
Geez ebond......you're not a gladiator...........you're a bass fisherman for crying out loud!!!!! ;D ;D ;) ;D ;D
BD ;D
Its the American dream! Go BIG or go home. The key is to not go into debt doing it!