What is the significance of April 25th being the day we can legally target bass in Michigan? It doesn't make sense to me but then again I'm not a fisheries biologist.
If the state got half a brain and got the DNR some funding for BASS it would definitley improve the amount of trophy fish available in our waters.
Give someone $50,000 - $100,000; like Dan K. for example; and I bet in 2-5 years you could see 5-7 lbs. become common catches on the lakes that actual management of Trophy BASS was taking place. Bass Guy for guy for Governor - could happen.
You are right the big fish are biting now.This law about a catch and release season is pointless in my mind.You should be able to fish for them but release until the season opens later in the spring.Thats just my.02 ;D
I would like to see an open season. but catch and release until july so that way all the fish have a chance to spawn. this would also keep the fish near bed and not miles away at some weigh in. IMO
There's a closed season on bass??
Believe it or not... I've heard this SEVERAL times from guys in my store AND out on the water this year. Ignorance won't get you out of a ticket though.
I went crappie fishing Tuesday on Gull Lake with a buddy of mine. We could SEE the dang fish but couldn't get one to bite. There are some HUGE crappie in that lake!!! Threw a ton of things at them. I think the 39 degree water had something to do with it.
I for one think the closed season is a joke. It does NOTHING for the bass population. The DNR's own data shows this. Every state south of Michigan has proven this.
I for one prefer to target pike this time of year as they are very aggressive so I normally leave the bass alone.
Everyone who fishes or hunts should know the regulations before they go. Reminder: Bass fishing and pike (inland) fishing are not open or legal until the last Saturday in April in Michigan. Any posts about fishing for any fish out of season on this forum will be edited. Please save us some time and do not post any reports or discussion about any actual fishing you've done for any fish that is not in season. Thanks.
It's taken a long time and a lot of effort to get the statewide catch and release season. I don't know if we can add any more at this time. Not saying it can't be done, but a number of things need to happen - support from other key groups such as MUCC and evidence that most persons won't be against a longer season for starters.
We do have a much better relationship with the MDNR so I wouldn't beat them up too bad. They've been very helpful on a number of issues in the past few seasons.
The original plan was to perform some bass study to see if the new season had any negative impact or not. I expect there hasn't been much done in that area due to the intense budget crunch and cutting of many activities.
Remember that there are great number of anglers out there including on other more general sites who are against or do not think a longer season is necessary. Anglers who visits this site in general want a longer season, but do not necessarily represent a majority. Even a number of anglers that come to this site want more spawn protection also.
The leg work has already been done regarding weather or not fishing during the "spawn" has a negative impact on the fishery. It was basically done by the Alpena Bass Club on Long Lake in Alpena.
They've had a tournament on memorial day weekend for at least the last 20 years.....even before the size limit went to 14". The lake has only gotten better. There are still a lot of fish in the lake and the fish have gotten bigger!! The tournaments would have a minimum of 30 - 50 boats each year with a true average of about 42.
It used to take 10 fish weighing any where from 14 to 18 pounds to win the tournament at the beginning. Now it takes 24 - 28 pounds to win with only a 7 fish limit.....and you still catch a lot of fish. Most tournaments were held at the peak of the spawn.....with NO negative impact for 20 years.
I must say though.......increasing the size limit helped a lot! We all noticed an increase in size within 3 years.........and this is on a 5,000 to 5,600 acre lake.
Remember.......they don't all spawn at the same time......
BS ;)
They don't even all spawn. Only about 1/3 of the bass at most spawn most years according to many studies.
A couple things to consider - people are much more concerned about the pressure on the 1,000's of small lakes in Michigan less than 1,000 acres. There was some discussion about having separate regs for the 40 or so large lakes in Michigan but understand a common complaint the MDNR gets is to have less complex regulations verses more complex. There are reports that more complex regulations cause a lowering in participation in hunting and fishing.
You can never take one lake and extrapolate that out to 10,000 plus lakes in a scientific manner. There are too many variables and differences to consider.
Not all lakes in Michigan have gotten better though many seem to have gotten better. Maybe a closer look at specific lakes with a smart selection of various types and sizes would be helpful since I don't believe the MDNR has the resources or personnel to do the studies necessary.
I think you will find that many variables are involved in bass fishing getting better or worse. If you can figure out a way to show it, you will probably find, as most studies have actually shown for over 50 years, that weather patterns, habitat, water quality and forage have had the most impact on bass populations.
Our challenge is that it is simpler for others to point their fingers at anglers because they can see them. (There's some bias involved too unfortunately.) Many persons have been led to believe that you can control fish populations pretty much solely with angling pressure management. It's easier to try to manage fish populations by managing angling pressure too. Managing angling pressure might even be successful on some waters in some situations depending on the other factors.
Try managing Mother Nature? Many times I have seen anglers debate fishing populations and success on the Internet wanting to blame everything on what other anglers are doing without taking any other factors like weather and wind into consideration. On average, smallmouth bass populations have 3 good spawns out of 10. This can be enough too if some other bad timed environmental effect doesn't come into play.
But in the end, when the fishing success goes down, anglers want to point the finger at other anglers. Anglers often give up fishing opportunity so they can 'do something' even though giving that opportunity up probably didn't do anything to help the population.
Such as when Ohio anglers gave up two months of their smallmouth season on Erie because a study showed that gobies ate some smallmouth eggs out of beds. This was social management at its worst. The study was supposed to run 5 years, but they gave in in 2 years for many factors, NONE of which had to do with any study showing the gobies OR fishing had anything to do with population level effects.
There was some mention about severe wind several springs in a row during the spawn AND it has been mentioned in other studies that the Lake Erie smallmouth population in the Western basin is probably most affected by poor spawn due to excessive winds during the spawn wrecking large numbers of beds. That makes sense to me, but you can't stop the wind.
The question truly is then, do the Ohio Lake Erie smallmouth anglers gain anything by giving up 2 months of their bass fishing? Or will the smallies increase or not depending on favorable weather during several spawns regardless of movement of bass by anglers? No one can say for sure, but there has been NO study done yet that has shown population effects on bass anywhere due to fishing during the spawn. Too many other variables and too many examples of fishing success staying the same or getting better anyway.
If we want to change the bass season further in Michigan, we need to win over all the other anglers who may not be open to the change, or many who just don't care about bass. We need to get the support of MUCC because of its broad base and influence.
We need an answer for persons who will say that anglers will say they are fishing for bass while illegally fishing for walleye if we have a bass opener earlier than the pike/walleye/trout opener. If we stay catch and release only, we can counter the people who say too many bass will be killed through the ice by saying they have to be released. We'll need to show there is enough interest in having a longer season since some anglers argued that there isn't enough interest to justify going through all this effort.
These are some of the things that came up during our last efforts. They may seem strange to us, but remember, we are the smaller number of very dedicated bass anglers compared to the whole.
Dan,
Your post is one of informed reason and well stated analysis. ;)
I hope no one confuses my comments with a lack of desire for increasing fishing opportunities. I've always been outspoken about providing as much fishing opportunity as the resource can provide regardless of social issues. I just have to be aware of those social issues since so many regulations in many states, provinces and countries are designed partially or completely due to social expectations. They are also the hardest ones to counter often. Change is hard and scary for many people.
I would be willing to bet that are small group spends the most money.
I so want to move back south to a logical state where people have never heard of such silly things as a season on bass.
While the C&R 'season' is ok, it is not much different than a totally closed season for me. I can fish either way, but without real tournaments, what is the point? Just hard to get excited about it.
Quote from: bassassasin88 on April 19, 2009, 10:00:35 PM
I would be willing to bet that are small group spends the most money.
Our group isn't as small as many people think and we are big spenders. Perception is often tougher than reality to counter though. I'm not sure how much we spend will have much impact on a change. Some people think so, but I don't expect it to be much of a factor in any of my plans unless I'm talking to legislators and involving legislators is always riskier than working through the MDNR first and last if possible. Legislators can be very unpredictable and get pressured differently by other opinions than the MDNR often does.
Well, I guess I'll just stay out of this one as it will do nothing but dig me into a hole.
Oh, and I don't drive 70 mph on the freeway either. ;D
Quote from: SethV on April 19, 2009, 10:33:03 PM
I so want to move back south to a logical state where people have never heard of such silly things as a season on bass.
While the C&R 'season' is ok, it is not much different than a totally closed season for me. I can fish either way, but without real tournaments, what is the point? Just hard to get excited about it.
Cmon Seth, don't leave all this great bass fishing! You are probably one of those lucky guys who can fish all year and stay married (not sure I would - I'd probably be broke and divorced if I could fish all year ;D ). Besides, it would be hard to fish many tournaments from your boat late December through early March anyway!
Unfortunately, with all our small lakes and the ingrained attitude among some towards tournaments, mixing that into any season change makes it several times harder. We may get there, but we all know change is very hard for many people. Too much change at once is almost impossible in some cases. Baby steps. Baby steps. If we keep stepping ahead, we can still get there.
Now of course, there may still be some of my anti-spies reading this who will say, 'see, I told you he's just trying to get bass tournaments all year in Michigan' but I guess I'll tackle that discussion later when I have to with those special friends. Maybe some of you will want to debate them later? ;D
Actually, hopefully, it won't come to that if there is a next time. It's just no fun having a bunch of people mad at you.
Quote from: Waterfoul on April 19, 2009, 11:02:15 PM
Well, I guess I'll just stay out of this one as it will do nothing but dig me into a hole.
Oh, and I don't drive 70 mph on the freeway either. ;D
Shoot, you dig the hole all by yourself!!! ;D :o
I'm hoping you drive 68... Over 70 is illegal! ;D
;D ;D
Dan - that was a WOW article you just wrote. One would want to easily assume that when you pull a female off her bed and take her to weigh in, that the bed and eggs are lost completely. One could also derive that year after year - major tournaments (Like Burt and Mullet) that pull 150 - 300 bass off their beds would drive down the population. But you're stating thats not the case ?? :-\'.
Couple ideas I just jotted - want input on all of em ? Needed or not needed:
A) Open the season to C&R starting earlier (Jan 1) and allow kill as per the current date BUT take ourselves to be more responsible - tie our own hands and state in the June tournament rules - NO BED FISHING ? Tough to enforce, but I'd bet some anglers would watch their competition and report the misconduct ? IS that extra protected month needed ? If not then ask yourself - is a C&R season needed at all ??? -- is my point
OR
B) Maybe its as simple as saying - move the date back cause multiple - multiple studies and video (Thanks Mr. Stricker) show Catch and immediate Release (within 100 ft of the bed) does not have a harmful effect on bedded fish
AND
C) Im sure the DNR and the other mentioned departments know when each lake is in 'spawn mode' - Is it wise to schedule a tournament at that time EVERY year ? Can this be managed responsibly ? There werent 'fishing leagues' until the last decade - are we having an effect by moving these fish ??? (I know Ill be called the 'fish loving liberal' by all you bed fishermen)
Either way I'd like to work with the TBF Conservation team to walk these ideas through, because I believe we have the ability to steer our sport in the right direction.
Mojo
Sorry I didn't get to call you back yet mojo. I will call you as soon as I can. In the meantime regarding this topic:
We are talking about over 10,000 lakes, not 1 or 2, remember. As far as Burt/Mullett, we began having spawn tournaments there back in 1994.
We did not have them every year until the past 3, but about every 3rd year from 1994 on. Average weights to win when we started were 3 lbs per fish until about 2000. Then average weight to win pushed 4 pounds or over. Now, average weights have increased to 5 pounds in 2006 to 5 1/2 pounds in 2008. Numbers of bass weighed in show no impact either. Not a very good argument for tournaments during the spawn harming bass populations if anyone wants to try to use Burt and Mullett.
But these are 2 of the biggest lakes in Michigan with a great deal of spawning areas, excellent smallmouth habitat and forage. I would say it appears these lakes show many of our big lakes can probably handle catch and keep fishing during the spawn just fine even considering the possible shorter growing season of the North.
Our bass season has not protected the spawn or much of the spawn for decades actually so that alone is an indicator that protection is not needed on many lakes. Our bass season was moved to a 3-day holiday weekend some time ago purely for social and economic reasons, not to protect the spawn. I have seen a handful of smaller lakes where spawnfishing seemed severe by catch and kill anglers, but I can't say for sure those lakes have suffered with the exception of a few smaller northern lakes.
Bass spawn over a longer period than many anglers expect. One tournament for one week or less will have a hard time impacting the overall spawn even in northern Michigan. Plus, think about how many bass beds actually have to be successful to make enough new bass to keep things going.
I have never been supportive of tournament rules that say you can't fish spawning bass. First of all, I have not seen any definite indication it is needed based on observation and reading studies. Secondly, it is too arbitrary and difficult to enforce. Think about Burt and Mullett as a great example. (Erie too for that matter.) How deep do you have to fish before you know for sure you are not catching spawning bass? If I just scatter cast across a slightly deeper flat, am I targeting spawning bass or just catching them 'incidentally?'
I talk to anglers all the time who tell me they don't fish for spawning bass, but I guaranty if you are fishing less than 15 feet deep from April through June on almost any lake in Michigan, you are catching some spawning bass whether you know it or not. I've seen way too many deep beds on too many lakes including those deep enough they could only be seen on an underwater camera right were people are fishing who say they don't bed fish. So, knowing many anglers know that, can I feel comfortable with some anglers saying they aren't sightfishing, but they are scattercasting the same areas they could sightfish in, and in the end catching some of the same bass they would if they sightfished them?
Another arbitrary part about 'outlawing' spawning fishing in tournaments is that I spend time in the boat all the time with anglers who can't see beds I can. So they could spawn fish and claim ignorance, possibly even truthfully, while I would have to abstain from fishing the same spots. And then do I protest them and say I believe they could see those bass because I can? Or because I don't believe them when they tell me they couldn't see the beds? Not a great option in my book. About the only spawning rule I like for tournaments is for the partner to guaranty that a sight-fished bass has the hook in its mouth.
Personally, I did propose that the BFL rotate among several Northern waters, but for various reasons, that did not work out so far. We were supposed to go to Charlevoix this year, but the city canceled on the BFL. I expect you may see a different lake next year.
About the only thing I can say for sure about having tournaments during the spawn on some lakes is that if and when the inevitable downturn in the population does occur, some people will blame the tournaments even if the downturn doesn't happen for 20 years.
Tournaments are a visible target and people feel they can do something about them unlike the weather and other natural conditions we can't control that have a lot to do with the natural ups and downs that tend to occur in bass populations. We are definitely on a fairly strong and consistent upturn in bass populations in the North and East of Michigan. Some lakes in the West are not doing as well. I would expect you find some LMBV and extensive weed kills every year that have gone on for years in some of those lakes. Those are some strong variables to ignore.
Lets not confuse personal beliefs with the amount and type of fishing the resource can handle. I won't tell someone they can't fish some way they like just because I prefer not to do it as long as it will not harm the resource.
I personally do not believe we need a closed season, but I also do not have a problem with only adding catch and release seasons because it will be so much simpler to accomplish and less likely to have an adverse affect on the less productive lakes that might be affected by a year round catch and keep season. Trying to add a longer catch and remote weigh in tournament season in Michigan at this time would be a knock down drag out fight.
Giving up any of our existing season in any way would also be crazy. It's taken too long to get where we are at.
As far as taking 300 bass off beds on Burt and Mullett, consider how many beds are out there and how many bass. Is 300 a significant percentage of bass on lakes that large? How many bass do you think are out there spawning on those lakes? I already mentioned that bass spawn over a longer period so there will be beds done when we get there and more new beds will come on after we leave. I've gone up there a week or two after we've been there to find new bass coming in and beds holding bass again that had been 'emptied' when BFL was there. I went out the next day two years ago after the BFL. You should have seen how many bass I could still find on beds the next day including some big ones!
I remember going up years ago the day after they had their opening weekend tournament on Long Lake in Alpena. I was told every team had a limit except one the day before. Yet I caught over 30 bass off beds that next day in just two small parts of the lake... And that was just that one weekend.
Indiana does not have a closed season an therefore gets a ton of pressure in the northern part of the state. Many lakes have tournaments on them every weekend starting way before the spawn and lasting until after the Michigan season opens. Personally I don't think it has affected the number of fish in the lakes. I would like to see at minimum the catch and release season be open all year. That would give the possibility of at least having catch and immediate release tournaments be a possibility.
For me personnally things are fine the way they currently are....Ice out on alot of lakes was less than a month ago...The delay in bass season also gives me an excuse to walleye/crappie fish for a couple of weeks before I have to "Go to work" pre-fishing...(Of course I am kidding about the go to work part, I love it but you guys know what I mean)
Whatever the reason, size limits, management, natural causes etc etc..Fishing is better now than I ever remember it for pretty much all species..I have no reason to complain and I say "drive on, keep up the good work" MDNR and the powers that be in this state.....
Take a look at other states tourney weights or talk to some guys from other states about how tough their fishing is and I am sure you will see how blessed we are here in MI...
Even in inland waters our bass fishing ranks pretty high nationwide...
I don't see tourists coming to Michigan to Ice fish for bass.... ;D
Good post though I agree 100 percent with the environmental issues that are ignored..
The lake that my family lives on up north just went through the exact same thing...Thousands of dollars were spent on both sides , but in the long run the fisherman did not have the resources of the wealthy land owners and lost their battle in court...It is not always a decision by the DNR on weed management, sometimes as in this case it is fought in the court system...
It is not the MDNR that approves all the aquatic plant killing. It is the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality (MDEQ). For some time, the two did not appear to be working together. It was really bad for some time after Engler split the MDNR into the two parts after promising he wouldn't do that. I don't think it has recovered anywhere near where it should be, but I will need to have a discussion with friends within the MDNR to find out how the relationship goes at this time.
One other point - many anglers often confuse tougher fishing due to pressure with a change in the bass population when studies have shown the population is as good as it was before the fishing 'got tough.'
Part of the reason it is rare to show anglers 'fished down' a fishery is because appearances can be misleading.
http://www.bassfan.com/news_article.asp?ID=3257
here's an interesting article with some interesting views. I agree that the tournaments held during spawn can't have nearly as big of an affect on the population as the many lakes that are sprayed around memorial day for the patrons from other states to enjoy their water sports. Some weed harvest may be good, but it has to be done right, and by right I don't mean finding the company that makes the most effective weed killing chemicals. There has to be other ways. I think you mentioned something in the Paw Paw Lake weed kill write up Dan, maybe you can pm me and we can talk about it. Thanks
1Jav
Yes - some companies do try to maximize profit by overspraying since they rarely have oversight - state employees... or anglers watching that they stick exactly the limits of the application permit.
And if anglers get more involved up front at public meetings and by submitting comments during public comment periods, maybe the application permits can be even more limited. Not always, but it can work better than it does now.
After that, we can start pushing for active recovery plans that don't happen. Okay, now you've killed the plants, what are you going to do to bring the 'good ones' back?
Michigan could be a premier tournament fishing destination in April/May, if the season was open. I don't think a lot of people realize what we are missing by not fishing during the prespawn. You can fish it legally further up north and it is incredible, we are missing a lot on St. Clair with the closed season. I also don't think spawn tournaments hurt a fishery anymore than tournaments at other times of year. I have seen released smallmouths begin to bed again within hours of being released. I know over the past 5 years on saginaw bay the bed fishing has gotten better for size and numbers even with all the tournaments.
-Matt
Maybe we should all start taking non-tournament anglers fishing more during the spawn on various lakes? If more persons could see what we see a few times...?? Well, change is hard, but easier when people see things several times with their own eyes... well not everyone, but enough.
I've had people who should know better tell me mabye I didn't know what I was seeing... when I've told them some of things I've observed (over and over and over... ;D Hey, I just thought of some ideas cameraguy mentioned the other day that might help...)