I am curious as to what everyones thoughts are on this bailout. Do you think it will save the auto indutries or just delay the inevitable. I personally think it just a band-aid, just because they get new capital for operations, it won't help sales which is where the problem lies.
I heard a gentleman the other day on NPR who contends that the root of all the problems occuring with the auto industry and sales in general are the wages of the American worker. He stated that wages today adjusted for inflation are on average 33% lower than 1973. That being said I don't believe that a bailout will cure the problem, but way not lend them the money? We're dumping cash in the financial market at an unbelievable rate.!! What's 30 billion dollars?
I think something needs to happen, but I don't quite know what needs fixed. All of this news is making the matter worse so now it is necessary for a bailout to regain consumer confidence.
They do need to adjust their line up of vehicles a little to sell more, but I understand they make a lot more on trucks and SUVs so they would rather sell those than small cars. In what direction do they need to go? Personally I think Hybrid technology is overhyped and not worth the expense. Look at the new Chevy truck, the hybrid option gains 3 MPG city and 1 MPG highway. E85 didn't work out too well either, cutting into the food supply and driving the price of corn through the roof. To me clean diesel seems to be a good way to go. We can make the fuel here, with biodiesel becoming more available all the time. I'm running a bio blend in my car right now getting 40-45MPG. A diesel just won the "Green car of the year" award last week too. The Big 3 do produce cars with similar technology for other markets around the world, why did they not bring them here? They brought the Opel/Vauxhaul Astra here under the Saturn name but without a diesel option. Would people buy them?
The next issue is health care and pension costs. There's a lot of talk about GM's workers costing about $71/hour and Toyota's costing $47. Right now Toyota has only a handful of retirees to pay for because they have had factories in the country that long. Maybe I'm wrong but wouldn't their labor cost be a lot higher if they had the huge amount of retirees that GM does?
Is it quality? I had my share of crappy American brand cars in the early and mid 90s and switched to German cars. Three of the last four cars we have bought within the past few years have been GM and I cannot complain about the quality at all.
These are just my observations as a supplier who has been in and out of factories for years and I am definitely feeling the crunch. I hope something happens soon at least for my sake.
P.S. I like maps and here are some interesting ones showing what an atlas looks like depending on car exports, imports, private healthcare costs, etc: www.npr.org/multimedia/2008/11/atlas/
As someone who has worked for GM for over 30 years this topic definitely hits home. I have seen the best and worst in my time there. This has to be the worst. If one or more of the big 3 were to declare bankruptcy to trickle down would be huge. When an airline declares bankruptcy they operate as normal until they emerge. When someone is buying a 300.00 plane ticket there is not much to lose. When you are paying 30,000.00 for a new vehicle would you want to take a chance the company would be gone in a year. The jobs lost are not just the auto workers and retiree pensions. Like Chris stated the suppliers, dealers, local economies would be affected. The one number I read was an estimated 3 million jobs lost. Gone are the days of profit sharing and bonus checks that used to help boat and RV sales. I believe the big 3 will get there loans, but it will come with some huge changes in the way the auto industry is run in the future. It is my hope they all survive and prosper, so we do not become a nation of people depending on foreign cars for transportation.
Steve Smith
Commerce, mi
Quote from: Durand Dan on November 29, 2008, 11:12:06 AM
I heard a gentleman the other day on NPR who contends that the root of all the problems occuring with the auto industry and sales in general are the wages of the American worker.
The gentleman on NPR doesn't have a clue. Essentially he is saying it is alright for the CEO's and high ranking corporate officers to take the outragious bonuses. That is where the pain is. It is not the American Worker. It is all I can do to make ends meet without any O.T. or anything like that. Mulally won't work for a dollar a year. Wagoner won't work for a dollar a year. Nardelli already is. Nardelli doesn't get paid until Chrysler turns a profit.
Quote from: dashaver63 on November 29, 2008, 09:58:08 AM
I am curious as to what everyones thoughts are on this bailout. Do you think it will save the auto industries or just delay the inevitable. I personally think it just a band-aid, just because they get new capital for operations, it won't help sales which is where the problem lies.
Let's first understand that this is not a bailout but a bridge loan. A bailout is what the banks got. What that means is that the banks do not have to pay back any money to the Government whatsoever. The Auto Companies want a loan. That means they are going to pay it back. The banks and AIG don't have to pay back a dime. So tell me where that is fair.............This all started because banks were giving mortgages to people who were not qualified to get them. So now we pay for their bad decisions. That I am not in favor of.
Quote from: Durand Dan on November 29, 2008, 11:12:06 AM
We're dumping cash in the financial market at an unbelievable rate.!! What's 30 billion dollars?
Thirty billion is a mere pitance compared to what the banks have already gotten. That thirty billion will be paid back unlike the 700 billion that went to the banks.
If the auto industry or should I say the domestic three go under, so will a lot of other businesses. The effect will be devistating to the Michigan economy. The little market on the corner will go under along with all the other "Mom and Pop" businesses. All the auto suppliers will go under and the devestation will waterfall until the economy in Michigan will be at depression standards. Don't expect me the auto worker to take a pay cut until the Mulally's and the Wagoners take a cut. The worker has already taken concessions. I know I have and so have a lot of my Union Brothers and Sisters from GM and Ford. Enough is enough. The arrogance of the top ranking officers of these companies can not go on and neither can their compensation plans.
BD ;D
I want to say that I just jhope someone steps forward with a plan to help the companies compete. I have to say I don't know what is best for the big 3. I'm not that bright I guess. I hear some claim bankruptcy is the way to go, and others say a bailout is needed.
I am opposed to bailouts 99%. My wife and I spent our $1200 last year on our stimulus check (a bailout) on buying stock. A lot of good that did. I'm sure we lost it. I drive a Chevy truck and wouldn't think of buying anything else. But when we bought a new car, we went with a Honda Accord. It's built right up the road in Marysville and employs Americans. I want Americans to make a good wage for an honest day's work. It just seems like any bailout is going to come with a lot of concessions.
I also agree that CEO's taking huge bonuses is a part of the problem. Sam Walton built his business up on the principle that the owner of a company shouldn't make more than 5 times what the lowest person in the company made. Those days are gone.
But, we're gluttons for punishment. We shake a stick at the CEO's, but we'll turn on a football game on Sunday and watch a bunch of knuckleheads play games for millions of dollars. We'll go to the movies and watch terrible films where actors make $20 million a film. Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered.
Eric
I like the way it's played out so far , the big-wigs got chastised in the media for showing up in private jets, not knowing how much money they needed,and now they want to block the tracking of their jets. I'd like to see how the cost of total hourly costs,retiree's, current worker's,and health costs compare to the multi-million dollar bonuses, inflated pay and expense accounts of the top level executives . Not to mention the money spent on prototype cars that never go into production , car shows, which are just party's for the big-wigs ,pro-golf endorsements, Nascar and NHRA, etc...etc... Anyone who is naive enough to think the cars they're racing are in any way related to the cars in the showrooms, cant afford to buy one ...IMO...I think that the way to sell the most cars is to build the BEST car !!!!! The hourly worker has no say in how the company is ran , but takes all the blame when things get tight . I hope they don't get the loan/bailout and then maybe the press will start to scrutinize where the money is really going and public sentiment might turn in favor of us.
Don't know if a loan is such a bad idea when I think if this means Michigan will take a bigger hit than it already has on the economy, I am very worried. I hear from so many other businesses how tough and getting tougher this economy is on them already. I can't imagine it getting worse?
Interesting video produced by outdoor advocates who support our US auto/truck industry and want to make sure we all know what may be at stake. Take 30 seconds to watch it if you haven't already. Thanks.
Check out www.gmfactsandfiction.com (http://www.gmfactsandfiction.com/) if you haven't already.
The problem I see with the government loaning the automakers the money to survive is that alot of it will leave the country. GM, I beleive, has outsourced research to China and also makes alot of there cars there. So how would a bailout help the American people? BRING THESE JOBS HOME!
1. Can't afford to bring the jobs home. Unions have priced their labor right out of the market.
2. Help companies compete. Can't compete domestically. Other labor is reasonable (affordable) and the quality of work is superior (no union rep to go cry to when you don't get your way or are asked to do your job).
3. Hourly worker takes all the blame??? Ain't buyin it. See the end of number 2.
4. Once upon a time unions were probaly necessary and I imagine are still good if you work for a bad employer, but for the most part the unions are largely to blame. My experience is they just protect the bad employees and keep the quality of work down. That has reached broadly enough that other industries, not as notable, have shut down, etc. Secondary to that, the former employees, now jobless, now cannot afford to buy anything. So, the big ticket item companies (like autos) suffer also because no one can afford to buy them. Then they begin to experience financial struggles as we are hearing about today.
My area has been noted nationally for the jobs that have left the area. So much so that the state created programs extending educational and unemployment benefits to 24 months. Now most all of those extended benefits have expired and very few of these people have jobs still. It is very competetive for a job at McDonalds, and there are no "good jobs" to compete over. Will an auto bailout or loan fix this kind of thing. No way. If they can't make any money now, how are they going to pay back a loan without any money. Just another case of hey, can I get something for free too. No way they will be able to pay it back, so the gov't will say don't worry about it, rather than force 3 million jobs to go away.
Hey Eric, I read your post this morning but waited to respond to it so I would'nt come across like Big Dog did . I'll have to disagree with every thing you said . I worked at four different divisions of GM in my 30 yrs of service and 95% of the poeple I had the pleasure of working with were honest hard working salt of the earth people . I have seen people come in early to start their job because they were not as fast as others, but took pride in the fact that they still got the job done. I will also say that in my opinion 90% of the workers never called their union rep because they never felt the need . Sure there was the 5% or so that were real pieces of dung, but why penalize every one in the union for the actions of a select few ? Back in the early eighties, when the economy was strong, GM was bragging about how great their work force was , before the pencil pushing pinheads took over .When the economy was good people were buying gas hogs and had two or three vehicles each . How can you blame the current state of affairs on the UAW? The big three are not the only companys having problems, just the only industrys large enough to affect MILLIONS of people!!!! The UAW is not perfect ,but what or who is ? I'll have to agree to disagree with you, but would also say dont judge me or my UAW brothers until you walk a mile in my shoes, so to speak.
Generalizations are usually not productive or accurate. What is that saying about painting everything with the same broad brush...? Or something like that? I realize these kinds of things often turn into an angry union/anti-union thing. We hear so much about the negative and not enough about the positive. We end up feeling like everything is negative, especially during tough times. I know because I fall into the trap of generalization all the time. It is easy to do.
I prefer not to get into another 1 of 1 trillion debates about union verses anti-union on here, but I won't delete the nonpersonal posts. Unfortunately, I do have to delete posts that make things personal. It is okay to disagree and say so, but not okay to say things about the person because you disagree. Talking about the 'union' is not the same as saying something about the character of a person although I recognize (as everyone should) that, particularly in this region, statements about unions will strike a chord with many. Just keep it about the topic, not the person please. Even if you feel like it is personal because the topic is close to home, keep it about the topic and what is said, not the person/person's character. Thanks.
A rule I try to follow most of the time... like don't shop while hungry... don't post while angry, especially really angry because something has struck close to home. It is often harder to get a message across when the red is still filling the eyes too much.
I do think this issue of the big three affects too many persons/companies to make the final decision based on any generalities or because of one aspect of the issue instead of the whole picture. I'm much more comfortable considering a loan to companies rather than just giving out a huge amount of money like they have done for the banks and then watching what appears to be questionable use and practices continued. A loan, at least has more possible recourse behind it (I hope)?
Reading between the lines makes me think there was a post that got deleted that I didn't get to read. That's a bummer. If it was directed at me, if someone wants to pm me with some details, that would be great. I enjoy a good read.
Anyway. CR, I agree with you for the most part. you are right that the vocal minority gets the most attention. Millions of people aren't the minority, and do earn what they get. I was simply sharing my experiences, and some of my opinions. I never singled out anyone or any union. Like I said, I'm sure there are places that unions are/were beneficial. I have been fortunate enough to never have had my dad or myself work for a bad employer where the employees would have needed representation. I remember him getting profit sharing checks, Christmas parties and turkeys, etc. He, too was in the auto industry. I know I am lucky. Didn't mean to cause anyone to have a stroke or start a war, but........ I was home, surfing and bored, so I shared some of my experiences and thoughts. Since mine are different than others, does that mean mine are wrong?
Which bass boat is best, which motor is best, MSU or UM, Ford, Chevy, or Dodge, who makes the best line........................................
Anyone wanna go fishin?
Well I have been waiting to post.
And I suck at writing these things
(Just my opinion does it make it the only one or the right one. no way)
I too work for Ford Motor Company I'm skilled labor. But I have not been here all of my work life. I worked for the first 10 years of my carrier at a small job shop of about 200 people where I did my apprenticeship. When I worked there you were always busy performing tasks within your trade and other trades as well. We had all of the great things that small companies have very nice Christmas parties and over the top picnics, for the most part a great place to work. Only until the management changes along with owner ship did things lately change in a big way. Last Christmas The very same company just up and fired over 20 persons skilled and non skilled giving no reasoning... most of these persons were in the later stages of there employment 25 plus years each some with health issues. Now they have nothing but what they have saved in there 401k and bank roll. I guess you could say a Union would have been nice.
Now like I have said this was my first 10 years. My last 15 have been with Fords and yes my first months in the plant were like wow!! A whole different world. I started cleaning my machine. While I was waiting for a trades person to come over and look at it to make repairs. Wham a cleaner came over and ask that I please stop doing his job. Ok now what. A supervisor told me to go over and read a paper and wait.
That was 1994; today 2008-9No cleaners exist in the plant. All have gone, not to other jobs but just retired. They in no way could start on a line at there age.
We started off in my department with 22 heads. For 2900 production heads working 6 day 12 hours as of Jan 1 2009 we will be operating with 5 heads for about 600 heads total working 40 hours for the last 3 years in the plant. In a nut shell we are putting out more work with 5 heads than we did with 22 the biggest difference has been the attitude. When we lost the 17 heads over the last 5 years all of the old school thinking went out the door. The younger seniority stepped up and asked for better equipment to do a better job faster with out of the box thinking.
The days of thinking that every auto worker goes to work to sleep until they get off .... Man is that so old.
Yes I'm blessed to have a great job. But did you ever stop to think I wonder what the guy make picking up trash or how much does that person make giving my wife a perm for her hair. My point is that hundred of jobs out there make above average money. Why are the autos always right to the forefront.... I just not sure
My hope is that we can get some help from the government to get thru these troubling times. And start putting a car or truck out that the people just love. Also people love things that are cheaper.... I think that all of the import companies should be taxed as we are taxed in their countries. Other countries seem to protect their own we need to do the same. If a person were to buy a new import that is fine with me. I just wish they had to pay about 40% more for the car or truck that they do now
The big 3 have been making cars here for over 100 years and thru most all of that time they have agreed to take care of there employees. The imports on the other hand have been here for 35 years and are just taking care of themselves. I was wondering with no legacy cost (retiree cost) from the imports to speak of and if there labor is so much cheaper (new hires in my plant 14 dollars per hr.) Maybe cars should be ½ the cost of a domestic car or truck.
I know several of us have seen an e-mail flying around over the past few years about the 9-11 auto donations. I just got that one yet again a week or two ago. It was listing all of the monetary donations that the auto companies had given after 9-11 All of the domestic autos shelled out millions including Volkswagen and 1 other were out of the states and you guessed it Imports totaled a big ZERO I was hoping if this was true it would be picked up by main stream media.... It may be just a giant hoax..... Maybe they did give monies im not sure....
As you may have already guessed I'm not a huge fan of imports... I have several friends and some family that drives them I just don't understand how you can't buy a truly American car. If you want to know if you drive an American car just as yourself one simple question when you give the dealer a check for the car where does the money go!!! Over the pond or S.E. Michigan
it's gonna be a long winter with these kind of topics...
who started this....lol ;D
Don L
i hope these CEO's think long and hard as they drive their way to washington for this next go around.
Yes Don, I'm the culprit here. I also work for Ford as a supplier for the Edge and MKX. We make the entire chasis parts for those 2 cars. If you take off all the outer body parts, what's left comes from Findlay, Ohio. We also do parts for GM and Mitsubishi but on a MUCH smaller scale. I didn't intend this thread to become a discussion about Unions, however I have to agree with Eric. There is a reason Ford suppliers like the one I work for are non-union facilities, wages and benifits, plain and simple. Suppliers have to keep their costs down to sell low cost parts to Ford. The entire chasis for one vehicle that Ford buy's from us costs less than $200.00. All other suppliers have the same contract with Ford that we have and that is to show a certain percentage of cost savings ever year, meaning we have to sell those same parts for less. Guess who has to pay for those cost savings? The workers do. They save money by paying less of our health insurance every year, so we pay more of it. Then our little raise every year doesn't even cover a tenth of the increase, so we lose money out of our pockets. I have worked there for 10 years and have 10 days vacation, 5 of which I have to use for July shutdown. We have asked for more but it comes back to cost. So, where does that cost savings go that we give to Ford? Spending less every year for parts you would think the cost of the vehicles would go down, but no, they go up to pay the union wages and raises they get every year, and all the upper management and ceo's. I'm not anti-union by any means, but I would like to be treated comparably to the union workers. We make enough parts in one day to build almost 1000 vehicles, and it's not easy work either, all hands on, no automation or robots. So, walk a mile in MY shoes, I feel like the unwanted stepchild looking in the window while my brothers and sisters opening their christmas presents.
Never have I worked for a union company, so I may be off a little, but:
I have been at my job for 5 years now and would be tickled to death if I could receive the hourly wage of a union employee. But, here goes the "I want to get as much as him" agenda. Why don't you get as little as me instead? I am not a lowly man on the totem pole here, I have worked as the General Manager and 'Assistant Manager' for my company for years now. I was lucky enough to make $40,000 a year, once. Now I work for well under $15 per hour, so as not to implicate my exact salary, have 2 weeks of vacation, my insurance coverage was just cut in half, my 401k match was just cut in half, but I am still working. I own a home, 2 vehicles, a boat, and am in debt over my ears. Come live in my shoes and tell me that unions don't make it harder for us.
We had a power problem and it took 6 employees of the electric company to repair it, 5 to watch and 1 to work. How much were these guys making????? I bet a lot more than $15 per hour. No wonder the cost of everything is going up around here, a few people get overpaid while most of us get underpaid, then wonder why we show up in an import; because we can't afford to pay for domestic!! We shop at Wal-Mart, who puts companies out of business with their foreign products, because we save a few bucks over shopping local goods!! I pinch and pinch while everyone else cries about how they can't go on 3 vacations this year and what not. I agree with you 99% Eric. Some unions may still be good, but it's a matter of time before they are just as corrupt as the rest of them.
1Jav
What a topic... There is no place for this one to go but down hill. With that said, I sure is a great country we live in to be able to say what we want about the things that mean so much to us all.
I'm out, see you in the spring for sure .... I love you all no matter what you drive where you work or how much you make. Because I'm happy just to be able to wake up and talk about fishing....
Don L
you can't point the finger at any one level of the auto industry.
- Unions causing unnecessary overhead
- Management / White collar jobs that are pointless or even anti-productive
- Gross overcompensation of executives
- Lack of vision and planning at the executive level
What it really boils down to is the fiscal dysfunction of large, bureaucratic corporations (much like our federal gov't). Manufacturing has changed and the auto industry has just been big enough to ride the storm until now. We absolutely need a domestic car manufacturing market for numerous reasons - we need to get away from the Big 3 and go to the Medium 12 however. Allowing a company to be competitive also means not having all your eggs in one basket. That said dumping money into a sinking ship just means your money sinks with it... i think the bailout is a bad idea, and a waste of money. Either way, it will be painful... I don't foresee GM making it out alive either way. It would almost be best to just hunker down, let them go bankrupt and be there with the 30bil to help start up new companies and manufacturers from the ashes. Use some of the money to backup the pensions and warranties on the current vehicles.
Like i said - either way wont be pretty. I just don't feel that we should let fear spur us into setting a big pile of money on fire.
It looks like there is a lot of intelligent discussion going on here. That is very cool I think. We all have our own opinions, and regardless if I agree with yours, I will fight for your right to have it. I love America. How many people have learned something from this thread. I know I have, and I have looked into some things I hadn't heard before this thread. So, even though this ain't about fishin, it's still pretty cool, I think. Keep 'er goin' boys.
Go Wings!
Got the following link from a friend (yep, from the auto industry). Interesting stats (of course, each side can present info to support their argument).
http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org
There are a lot of factors that have led to where the domestic auto industry is today. We can point fingers at unions, administrators, health care costs, "free" trade, bonuses...does it really matter? We're here, let's look for solutions. Let's just get some smart dudes together and come up with a plan to fix the problems (whatever they may be).
The CEO of our parent corporation was in our plant today and shed some light on some very interesting points, mostly about Ford. The projected "bailout", for Ford anyway, is not a bailout at all. Ford today asked Congress for access to a loan for 9 Billion "just in case". It all depends on the economy and car sales if the Detroit 3 are to survive, plain and simple. If for some reason congress denies the requests of GM, Chrysler and Ford, it would not only hurt those 3 but all auto manufacturing in the United States. Automotive suppliers are heart and soul of the auto industry, and very few are dedicated just one auto maker. So if a supplier loses orders from 1 or 2 manufacturing facilities, there is not enough capital left to survive on and they end up closing and going bankrupt. So then, when GM and/or Chrysler/ cancels orders, Toyota , Honda , Mitsubishi or who ever else had contracts with them also loses a supplier. It's a vicious circle that could have disasterous effects. I apologize that this thing seemingly took on a life of it's own and became a big debate about Union labor. There are so many underlying problems that you can't put blame on just one area. The big problem lies in the sum of the many parts involved.
WHEW! I agree Don, LET'S GO FISHING! (for a looooooong time, maybe when we get back things will be better.) Like getting put into a chemical coma untill the pain goes away. Saw that on House.
Nice link, now tell them to explain why "domestic" is in quotations, what they mean by domestic, and why the same style of car costs more than a foreign made one? Our R&D may be top of the line, but we invest so much into higher end research that it outweighs the end result. I recently was talking to a driver for Reliable, who transports vehicles for a living. He opened up the back for me to see inside and what did I see? 2 Tomahawk motorcycles, which they simply use for corporate gatherings, an oversized big wheel (yeah, the one you rode as a kid) with a hemi motor built into it, simply because they can. When and where is any of the dollars these 2 items cost going to even itself out? It's not. It's our bigger, better, faster ego getting ourselves into trouble. Drop the toy design and give me a truck that gets 30 miles to the gallon, and I think more people would buy a Chevy than a Toyota. My opinion.
1Jav
Jav thats what I tried to say in my first post ,how management spends money on stupid stuff like that , and worse , then turn around and blames the high cost of labor for the price of cars ......Nothing to apologize for D63 , I enjoyed the subject and thought everyone handled it pretty well,or almost everyone. Its a complex problem with no easy answers. I love a good debate and hearing new ideas or thoughts , even when they are different than mine . I'll leave it at that though , for now , lets fish and let fish !!!
So Chrysler is shut down for 4 extra weeks to save money, but yet they are paying their workers 95% of their pay? Doesn't make a bit sense to me.
That 95 percent figure shows you how skewed the media and public hype is..Kind of reminds me of the 75 dollar an hour figure that I have seen some right wing bozos drive up to over 100 dollar an hour...I am not blaming you Doug that is just a figure that the media and guys Like Rush have put out there...
The real figure is 85 percent..Which isn't really factual either...
360 dollars for maximum unemployment...Then 300 plus for subpay...but you have to pay taxes on top of that...So let's say 700 dollars minus taxes takes it down to around 450 dollars....The average line worker probably takes home around 700 dollars on a forty hour paycheck...So take home on subpay is less than 60 percent...
What is the benefit for the company??? The company paid into a Sub pay fund as part of negotiations that gave the big 3 the freedom to outsource jobs..They only have to pay the subpay portion of the draw..You the taxpayer in combo with unemployment insurance paid for by the company pick up the rest..That is why pretty soon the 15 billion dollar LOAN will feel like a steal compared to the amount the Taxpayers are going to have to foot as part of any bankruptcy or failure..
Trust me when I tell you 99 percent of us would rather be working than drawing any type of monies through lay offs...It is a scary time for us all..
One other point to make, for the non-union workers...With NAFTA, and now Bush pushing CAFTA, and a big push in Korea now for a free trade agreement before Bush leaves office do you really think things are going to get better without true representation...With the Global trade agreements our wages will continue to self-level with the rest of the world until we are all making poverty level wages....With the outsourcing of manufacturing both union and non-union jobs will become fewer and fewer. There are only so many "would you like fries with that" jobs out there in the service industry and who can feed their families on those wages anyway..
If the American, blue collar working, middle class don't stand up pretty soon it won't be long before the division of the classes looks like it did before the industrial revolution...
Hey Motocross, good to hear from you. The President came through with the money, now lets see if any thing changes. About the jobs leaving the country, 99% of all the parts we make leaves the country, Canada and Mexico.
Doug...(I reread my post and see that I called you Dave.... ;D early day) Hopefully things turn around for all of us soon...
My brother-in-law lost his automotive job in the Grand Rapids area early this year. He was making 10 bucks an hour..It isn't like he was overpaid yet they shipped his job overseas. A big part of outsourcing is due to government regulations and restrictions...
Yes, that is a big problem, outsourcing our jobs. and the government is concerned about 4 million unemployed workers?
Hopefully GM and Chrysler can make the changes they need to make to get back on track. Ford said "no thanks" to any kind of government help, but they should also start looking to making cuts now before they do.
Quote from: dashaver63 on December 19, 2008, 08:19:17 AM
So Chrysler is shut down for 4 extra weeks to save money, but yet they are paying their workers 95% of their pay? Doesn't make a bit sense to me.
I don't expect the non-auto worker to understand this. So let me explain................
These plant closings are subsidized by another fund. The hourly employees get 90% of their pay before taxes. That means they get 90% of their net take home. Also add in unemployment compensation. So that is 90% of their net plus unemployment.....which actually means they collect only about 70% of their pay. This also includes any medical that the UAW now picks up.......not the company. I am a UAW Salary Chrysler employee of 23 years. This money is paid to the Bargaining Unit (BU) employee through insurance that the company pays into as a premium. So the company actually doesn't have that much cost....so it does save lots and lots of money.
It is amazing to me how many people only know what the media tells them. Until one eats, breathes, and sleeps this stuff I would advise that the uninformed ask the informed so that they can understand exactly what this stuff means. The uninformed are on the outside looking in. I live it everyday. I will be happy to explain this to anyone interested. After all, I am a negotiator for the Union in my roll.
These temporary plant closings do not include engineering and the truck plant in St. Louis. So that being said, I have to go to work since I am in engineering. All the Salary Bargaining Unit (SBU)personnel report as usual.
On another note, being in Engineering and a negotiator in Engineering, I get to rub elbows so to speak with Chryslers top management. I assure the general uninformed (persons not working in the industry who only know what they get from the media) non-automotive public that Chrysler Management and the UAW are doing all they can moving forward to maintain viability. If we are not a viable company then we will be in deep do-do. Chrysler and the UAW are meeting daily and have been for months about how to get through this. Remember, everything is negotiable. Ron Gettlefinger has already in a news conference last week told the American public as well as our elected officials in Washington what this all means. I would suggest anyone to visit the UAW Website at www.uaw.org (http://www.uaw.org) to listen to the news conference and understand what this stuff really means.
I am proud to be Union as the Union raises the bar for working families to preserve the middle class. If the middle class is not preserved then we will all be the "working poor".
Feel free to PM me with questions or even blog them here and I will do my best to answer them so that those that don't really know, do know and understand how this works. I also have extensive knowledge of the "job bank" and how it works. It is nothing like the Senators and Congressmen think. Like Ron said, "Legislators should stay away from the "collective bargaining table". Weeks and weeks of work go into collective bargaining.
Remember, we the Union people negotiate what we negotiate and a lot of others benefit from what we negotiate. We keep the bar high.
Solidarity, Solidarity, Solidarity Forever!!!!!
BD ;D
First of all let me state I have not worked in an automotive environment. However a good number of family and friends have, both as union and non-union members. My friend worked at the Chrysler plant in Perrysburg and Twinsburg as a union member and hated everything about the union. He told me daily about the laziness of fellow union workers and how they did as little as possible and in many cases sabotaged machines so they could shut down the lines and not have to work. My Dad worked at Ford and also a Ford supplier as a production worker, and then in Managment/Supervision and talked constantly about the same shenanigans that went on and how it's basically impossible for a union member to get fired for doing stupid stuff that anyone in any other stitatuion would get fired on the spot for. And another good friend was the supervisor at the Jeep plant who got shot and killed by a union worker almost 4 years ago, and I had to listen to UAW members talk about how they're surprised it hasn't happened sooner and that I have no idea how bad they have it--as in killing someone is justification for having to put up with a supervisor trying to get them to do their job? I have many more examples but it would take too long to type. I get that the labor costs on the news are somewhat skewed because the foreign manufacturers don't have the legacy costs that the Big 3 do. And I think the upper management is as much at fault as the UAW for this situation since they've all been looking out for what's best for themselves and not what's best for everyone and the survival of the company. Now they're all in a panic, their backs are against the wall, and their jobs are at risk. The UAW claims they've made all the concessions they can. BS! The job bank was on it's way out so that's a non-issue. They've agreed to delay the Big 3's contributions to the health care plan--big deal, they'll still have to pay it later.
Say what you want about the demise of the auto industry having a ripple effect that will hurt the entire country, but I say let them go bankrupt and lets take our chances. It's their own fault, both Upper Management for failing to adjust to changes in the industry, poorly negotiated contracts with the UAW, and paying themselves rediculous salaries; and the UAW for handcuffing the companies ability to do what's necessary for the survival of the company and imposing rediculous demands. Chances are we'll be giving them more money again in March, and I'll bet Chrysler will be gone by the end of the year, whether it gets sold off piecemeal or goes bankrupt. So much for "Solidarity".
Both Big Dog and Brian P have valid points. As a former Production and Maintenance Supervisor for GM I have seen the sabotage that brings down a line or creates overtime and I have witnessed the teamwork that goes in to building a product.
It's not a secret that the Automotive Manufacturing businesses run by the US companies need reorganization. But do we have to completely decimate the middle class to do this? The manufacturing base in the US has to thrive in order for us to succeed. We cannot live on service industry wages.
As far as some of the problems that need to be overcome? Just today I saw a commercial put out by GM for ONSTAR that states GM has 50 different models. Why do they need 50 different models? They don't need Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, Cadillac, Saturn, Saab etc. One offering can easily provide the variety needed to bring in customers.
The car companies are going to change the way they do business. But we certainly don't want them to fail.
Brian P...I have worked both Union and Non-union and also spent some time in the Army on both active duty and Reserves. (Retired last year)...Your comments are based on stories of ancient history and heresy. Things have changed dramatically in the plants and the stories that you are talking about are far and few between..
In over 10 years of working skilled trades in an automotive plant I have never seen any sign of sabotage...I worked another 10 years prior to that building and installing machinery in union plants all over the country and never saw any sabotage in that capacity either.
You label all union workers as bad because some bozo killed his supervisor...I would bet that murder of ones superior has happened way more in the military, does that mean all soldiers and the organization are bad...
I have worked with great people that are genuinely concerned about their job in Union and Non-union jobs...For you to lump a few bad apples together and Label unions and Auto employees bad is a mistake...I would consider it on the same level as racism...
I wish I could give you a tour of my plant and you would see Union, management and engineers working together to build a world class product...My plant was rated number one in quality in the country for manufacturing by quality magazine....We beat out hundreds of plants around the country both union and non-union...The success of our plant would not be possible without all parties coming together....To include the union..
Being involved in the UAW for nearly 20 years, both directly and indirectly, I too have seen both sides. I remember when a new machine was brought in to our plant to drill the bolt holes into the end of a crankshaft, it sat idle for almost 3 months because the Union had not got with the company to put a rate on the machine, and the ones scheduled to run it refused to run it with out the piece rate. Thats just one example of why I got out. My dad retired from the same plant after 35 years of service. I was even able to make 2 trips to Black Lake to the UAW center up there. I guess the thing that really gets me is that with what ever consessions the Union has to make, they are going to paint the picture that they are being singled out again, they are being persecuted by the government. Thats not the case at all, I already know that the suppliers are going to be hardest hit with new contracts. GM and Chrysler are going to want price cuts for their parts, knowing the suppliers really have no choice but to comply if they want to stay in business. That will cut into workers already making $10 to $12 dollars an hour and paying large sums every week for benefits. We already give back 6% of cost every year, and now we'll be losing even more. You don't hear about that on the news, we are the very bottom of the auto industry, and the UAW the executives of the Big 3 want to make sure we stay there. I'm sure the UAW and auto execs will take token conessions just to show they did something, but believe me, the suppliers will take the real hit when its all over.
All I hear about is preserving the "middle class", but at what expense? Someone will pay for this, and I'll bet it won't be the Union and thats just not right. We all ready don't have much, and to think we'll have to give up some of what do get so that UAW workers can preserve their way of life? How is that fair?
FAIR ??? Whats fair got to do with it ? Is it fair ? Life is not fair , it's A fair so make sure you ride all the rides. Most of these suppliers jobs your talking about are ex-union jobs that were outsourced in the last economic slow down in the 1970's . In 1979 my plant manager took his severence pay , built a building , and installed the exaust manifold line that I just got layed off from two weeks before . They made me work 12 hour days to for months build up inventory so as to not run out of stock . His name was Bob Carpenter and his company was Carpenter Enterprise . My younger brother hired in for minimum wage doing the job I was layed off from . This is just one example , I know of many others . At one time everthing was done in house before managers figured out how to outsource "union" jobs . Was that fair ? Why are so many people ready to blame the union workers .? Dash , your example of how the union did'nt get with the company to rate the machine doesn't make sense . Shouldn't the company have got with the union ahead of time ? They must have known the machine was coming , isn't that their job? To plan ? There are two sides two every story . The union isn't perfect , I've said that before , but back when GM was the icon of america the union was there .
You could definitely see the President was not happy to loan the money. His own party let him down when they did not vote for it. I am sure he did not want to go down in history as the President who started the next depression. It is sad to see the southern states that are supported by the foreign automakers be able to dictate the lives of the rest of the US. They are hurting also. Toyota is delaying completion of a plant to build the Prius in Alabama. There stock is half of what it was a year ago. When they start cutting back I bet you see those states begging for assistance. Hopefully all parties will get this straightened out so we can get back to talking about fishing.
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Good wishes to all this Holiday season.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28239206/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28239206/)
Ed Wallace does a great job puting the LOANS into perspective and getting to the heart of why there is a battle going on in DC...
Billions of dollars a month going to countries over seas that hate everything the US stands for yet when we have the opportunity to help ourselves Politicians and US citizens balk...I don't get it..
Doug is right on the battle that vendors have to face...But I believe part of that battle is a tool to lower wages through the threat of sending jobs overseas...Doug I would like nothing better for all the suppliers to make a fair wage and get good benefits, that would make all of us stronger..
This is my take on the union/non-union position. I have seen both good and bad unions, been a part of each, and was glad to have their representation when it was good...and glad to get outof Dodge when it was bad.
I think what is really hurting the union in this whole discussion is legacy costs. I just wonder, being a college graduate in sociology, if anyone, either on management's side or the union's side, took into account that people would live longer. I mean that's what is really killing Social Security (add in gov't tapping into it, and people receiving it who didn't pay into it). I think it's possible that no one allotted for the growing population of retired people.
I hope this bailout works. I do. But if you look into history, it was all the meddling by the Roosevelt administration that extended the Depression for 10 years. My wife just had an all hands meeting at GE. They are cutting 8% in her sector, but thnakfully her department was running lean already. Her department is exempt. There is apparently a hiring freeze inside and out at GE. We are tightening our ship at home,and hope to spend enough to help, but protect ourselves as well.
We can argue about it all we want, but at the end of the day, I hope you all take time to pray for your fellow man, one and all. IMO, we have become a selfish people, and now it's coming back to haunt us. I increased my giving to the United Way this year,and just went shopping for our food and toy drive at work. Then out of the blue, a co-worker lost her home to fire, and her daughter lost everything. This little ten year old girl not only had zero Christmas presents, but no clothes or shoes. My wife and I bought her shoes, socks, a pajama set, and a toy last night. Some say we are wealthy, and I agree we live comfortably. But I will never live comfortably enough to watch someone else do without.
God bless!
Eric
Motorcross, if the past 5 years are ancient history, then yes it is ancient history. I could name many more examples like the guy I know whose job was driving cars off the line. He was drunk at work regularly, and crashed enough cars that he was removed from a job, but not fired. And he was proud of that! Or how about the guy I used to fish with who worked at the GM foundry in Defiance who bragged about how he would spend his day, most of it consisting of parking his forklift, reading the newspaper, drinking coffee, and hiding. Of course he's also the guy who complained about how bad he had it and tried to justify the killing of the supervisor at the Jeep plant, saying "you don't know what its like to have some hot shot young supervisor telling you what to do all the time". I realize not all union members are bad, but this mentality is.
I don't think we should be sending billions of dollars overseas either, but unfortunately that's never going to end. And we have Bill Clinton to thank for NAFTA which opened the floodgate for overseas outsourcing.
Let me try to put the issue of hourly pay to bed with this question.
How do you think a reduced wage for a Big 3 autoworker would affect the price of a new vehicle?
Quote from: BryanP on December 21, 2008, 09:37:20 AM
Motorcross, if the past 5 years are ancient history, then yes it is ancient history. I could name many more examples like the guy I know whose job was driving cars off the line. He was drunk at work regularly, and crashed enough cars that he was removed from a job, but not fired. And he was proud of that! Or how about the guy I used to fish with who worked at the GM foundry in Defiance who bragged about how he would spend his day, most of it consisting of parking his forklift, reading the newspaper, drinking coffee, and hiding. Of course he's also the guy who complained about how bad he had it and tried to justify the killing of the supervisor at the Jeep plant, saying "you don't know what its like to have some hot shot young supervisor telling you what to do all the time". I realize not all union members are bad, but this mentality is.
I don't think we should be sending billions of dollars overseas either, but unfortunately that's never going to end. And we have Bill Clinton to thank for NAFTA which opened the floodgate for overseas outsourcing.
Actually NAFTA was brokered by Bush Sr and the heads of both Canada and Mexico cotingent on the Passing of the legislatures..Yes Clinton signed it into Law, but if you check your history you will see that the wheels were in motion well before he took office...It was basically a bipartisan screwing..
With that being said NAFTA is not the big thorn in our side..NAFTA has nothing to do with the Asian Imports where most of our imports are streaming in at this time...Hopefully the new administration will stop the steamrolling of CAFTA and the North Korean free trade agreement that is being pushed through as we speak..
As far as unions go you can believe in your mind they are the root of all evil if it makes you feel better...As I stated earlier I have worked in many different capacities to include the Military and I have seen great employees and crappy employees in every job I have been in. I could sit here and tell you horror stories of Misdeeds by soldiers or any other employment I have had, but that wouldn't accomplish anything but open a can of worms..From my experience first hand the Union is not the problem...Remember the bottom line it is still and always will be the Management's company to run..
The Key to a good organization is sound leadership..I don't care if it is the Military or a business...Leadership at all levels is what defines the success of a company...
To go along with the question that Durand Dan asked......
Why is everyone so concentrated on the 10 percent of the cost of the car that is Labor when you would think the largest opportunities for cost savings would be in the other 90 percent...???
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/executive_bailouts (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/executive_bailouts)
Interesting post on the bank bailouts....The sad part is the financials have no responsibility or accountability to pay their money back...Unlike the auto loans...Why didn't congress ask these bozos to work for 1 dollar.?..No wonder we are not seeing any positive movements in the financial markets and in credit, all the money is going into someone's swiss bank account.
Why is a group of working Americans that are willing to go to work every day and pay their taxes the Congress' target when excesses and waste like this are played out all through the financial markets??? I won't even get into.. congressional wastes in other areas..
It took congress and the admin less than a week to give the financial markets their 800 billion plus bailout, yet the Autos have had to grovel for months for a loan with huge stipulations...
Well, to add to the misery from the financial bailout. I hada friend at work tell me that he knew that of a person who lost there job at Lehman's Brothers and received a severance package. Then, he was hired by Goldman Sachs, and got a hiring bonus. That money came from the bailout money....
Sad!
Eric
What took longer? Congress to approve a bailout (Loan!) for the automakers(which they never did pass-Bush had to unwillingly push it through himslelf!) or for congress to vote themselves a raise this year in the worst economy in 70 years!? The question is not who is running the unions, but who is really running this country? And how are those that are running this country paid? By us! I can tell you for sure that I am not getting a raise this year!
I don't know 100%, but the financials bailout seems to be a quick and dirty disaster. I tend to think if it smells like dead fish. And looks like dead fish... it's probably dead fish. The whole financial bailout thing has smelled and looked like a dead fish from the beginning of ramming it through.
But that has no bearing on what I decide about another industry. I think it is unfortunate in the timing. We have always been strange as a country at picking priorities and fixes usually until it is almost too late. I will probably never get it. Regardless of the turds out there, floating mostly in the sea of good people, I want to understand and do something (support something) if I only know what it is.
I can't help but think we are talking about my family, friends and neighbors, and I want to help. Somehow. I grew up in Flint and watched when things seemed to tank in a very bad way after they closed Buick City. Now I live in Lansing and hear all the time about the impact from what happens in the auto industry.
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081222/as_japan_toyota.html (http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081222/as_japan_toyota.html)
With Toyota projecting their first loss since 1941 maybe congress will wake up and realize it is the Economy causing the huge downturns and not the Evil Union workers as some would have you believe..Also notice that Japan guarantees their Japanese employees Jobs for Life....Imagine that....
I guarantee the Japanese people would never turn their back on Toyota..It has been proven their government won't through Yen manipulation, unfair trade practices and government subsidies..
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/G/GOODBYE_GM?SITE=MIDTN&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/G/GOODBYE_GM?SITE=MIDTN&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)
A little insight into the death of a manufacturing plant...It is more than just numbers. It is peoples dreams and security being crushed by events they have had little or no control over...News like this makes me ill, probably in part because I know I am just a pen stroke away from sharing the same fate.....