I was out on Muskegon this morning with my dad. During a run across the lake, I was stopped by the Coast Guard. I wasn't doing anything wrong, it was just a routine check. After checking everything, he asked for my throwable. I have one, it was just in the port side rod locker. He told me that it HAS to be on deck at all times. They told me to sit on it while driving. Has anybody else ever heard that?
Some of the Coast Guard, and even other law officers, will say things like that. The actual regulation reads that it has to be readily available without defining it much beyond that. There are also references to being attached to a rope (so you can pull someone overboard back in?) and I have a floating rope of 25 to 50 feet (can't remember the exact length I bought but it was mentioned somewhere in a safe boating manual) tied to the handle.
I keep mine in the front compartment and the few times I've had a law officer tell me something similar I explain to them that my understanding is that the throwable has to be readily available, and I can pull out my throwable and deploy it in a matter of a few seconds as the references recommend.
If they push the issue I mention that having a loose cushion sitting anywhere where someone can accidentally step on it or trip over it in an open, shallow boat like mine is more likely to be the cause of someone falling overboard.
I've never had much discussion after that though a couple times when the officer seemed to be having a bad day or whatever the issue might be and they still told me I had to keep it out in the open I asked them if they could quote that actual language of the regulation. It's risky to irritate someone with 'authority' and a gun, but it's not much nicer to interrupt my rare fishing days with some kind of power trip or whatever that isn't making the world any better or safer... just my opinion. So I occasionally take risks.
In general, this rarely happens over the decades of my boating but sometimes we collide when all the wrong things are aligned and a quick interruption becomes something more. If possible, I try to avoid that, just not at all costs (I'm a redhead... we sometimes can't help ourselves... ;D).
I always recommend being courteous and patient whenever stopped. I also won't say don't ask questions in a polite and courteous manner if things start getting 'weird.' That doesn't always help... but it should be okay to ask questions.
Of course, nothing I say, or that is posted on GreatLakesBass.com constitutes legal advice or is guaranteed to help anyone in any legal encounter or that what is posted is an accurate and true representation of present law and regulations. :)
The Macomb county sherrif that tore me down at Harley Ensign insisted it had to be out with a rope....Luckily my Jag had a place for it under the console...My Puma doesn't have a place for it and I sure wish it did because i am back to running with it in the rod locker...
Mr Laporte was with me that day that we got to talk to the Sherrif....It wasn't pretty to say the least...
I am very nervous about having anything out with a foot throttle.....If it isn't stowed there is a good chance for it to make it's way up under the throttle and it may not be able to return...
I had a sherrif give me a hard time on an inland lake about me still having the plastic covering on my throwable.........It would still float...GEEEZ!!!
Not sure I've ever left the cover on one, but I have had at least one previous 'lecture' from a Macomb County deputy about my throwable. I have been told multiple variations by multiple law agencies. That particular deputy was the one I won't forget because I was the farthest in boat near shore in mid-central west Anchor Bay, I was the only bass boat and he idled all the way through a pack of at least 30 other 'kinds' of boats to spend 30 minutes going through my boat.
He had all kinds of small issues that weren't actually regulations or laws, just things he was apparently unhappy enough about the stop me from fishing for 30 minutes so I could listen to him.
It was a long time ago but after watching him idle back out after he was done with me through the big pack of walleye/perch boats checking no other boats than mine, some of which looked like good candidates for questioning their Great Lakes preparedness, I felt a little like I had a bass boat target on my back once again...?
Since it was a long time ago I won't hold it against anyone who stops me on the water now. Unless I start feeling special again... ;D Thank goodness it doesn't happen very often, but I am surprised once or twice a year when I find out how little some of these various law officers know about our little world.
That particular day I was in 'trouble' from the moment the deputy stopped me from fishing so I didn't say much but I did ask him what exactly the throwable regulation was and who through. I believe he said it was federal and that the throwable had to be reachable within a certain number of seconds - I think he said 3...?? Which I easily did when I got it out for him the first time.
Having loose light objects sitting in a fast moving open boat is not safe. Having something sitting around that can easily trip someone in a low draft open boat is not safe.
Since the boat manufacturers all pretty much follow marine industry standards if they really felt they needed to be creating a 'holding' spot for a throwable to keep their customers following laws and enjoying their boat I would expect all bass boats to have such a spot. Since the regulation is not that clear I expect everyone is fine the way it is except a few law officers having the occasional bad day.
Until I hear differently from a good natured law officer who can show me in writing somewhere official that proves otherwise I just leave it at that and make sure I know where the throwable is and how to grab it. I haven't needed it yet because the only one who generally falls out of my boat is me... when there's no one around to throw me the throwable ;D (I'm trying to stop that).
Let's face it
There's more then a few that are clueless. Not to take away from what they do
But they are the law and in charge on the water
I myself keep it in the front storage. And i do have the 25' of rope on it
There's no way I'm sitting on it. I have a life jacket
I know the guy down at LSC doing the GC checks has no problem with it being stored.
I've seen were they harassed people about with the kicker they were over the Max. HP
Have had them check the hieght of the numbers on the boats.
And one guy didn't like the outline color of the numbers?
Just stay calm, Say yes sir and they usually move on
If you need to talk about any thing, there's the weather, sports or how the fish are biting
Exactly the techniques I start out with. Most of the time I get to end with those techniques. Not always. But most of the time.
There are enough vague laws and regulations that just about everyone is susceptible to 'what someone else told them'...
I was stopped in Canada a couple years ago. The officer said I needed a rope attached to the throwable. Also a back up bailing device. I had a small pail that was my son's when he was 2 or 3. The officer liked it and said it would do.
They are just doing there job. Remember they get to pull the dead bodies out that we see on the news.
I have 2 or 3 manual balers in the boat. I've had experience in using them...
The past few seasons have been a little different in what you might be told on the Canadian side as far as requiring whatever is required where you come from verses meeting their requirements. What would we do if things didn't change.
They don't always do the rescues. One day between 11 Mile and 10 Mile my fishing partner and I had to pull in a father and young son after 'dad' flooded the ole jet ski in 63F water. They were becoming hypothermic after spending over an hour in the water next to their barely floating jet ski.
We could see them waving a long way off and there were probably 20 boats within reasonable sight including a Macomb County Sheriff boat. We pulled them into our boat, gave the youngster a towel and dry clothes to change into and had towed their barely floating jet ski half way to shore before the Sheriff's boat came over and offered to take over.
It was another one of those weird 'what the?' kind of days out there that happen every so often. 'Dad' told us he had been yelling and waving at boats that ran by as close as 30-40 feet the whole time they'd been in the water and no one would stop - we watched 2 or 3 boats run by on plane before we motored over. You could see everyone that ran by looked right at them.
The Sheriff boat watched us the whole time we were pulling them out of the water and while we hooked up and towed the jet ski that half way to shore before they motored over.
Maybe they thought dad and son were swimming? A half mile off shore?? Who knows. We didn't ask.
I was looking at A Boater's Guide To The Federal Requirements For Recreational Boats (http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/workflow_staging/Publications/420.PDF) (PDF) online Coast Guard document and here's what it says about the throwable device (from page 9-10):
"Any boat 16 feet and longer (except canoes and kayaks) must also carry one throwable (Type IV) device."
Always check and read the manufacturer's information booklet and label provided with all life jackets. They will provide valuable information, including size, type, intended use, and Coast Guard approval information.
Life jackets must be:
- U.S. Coast Guard-approved (check the label).
- In good and serviceable condition.
- Appropriate size and type for the intended user.
- Properly stowed.
Stowage
- Wearable life jackets must be readily accessible.
- You should be able to put them on in a reasonable amount of time in an emergency (vessel sinking, on fire, etc.)
- They should not be stowed in plastic bags, in locked or closed compartments, or have other gear stowed on top of them.
- Throwable devices must be immediately available for use. They should be on the main deck within arm's reach, hanging on a lifeline, or other easily reached location.
They stopped me strictly on a routine check. I wasn't going to argue with them. It was a weird stop. Here's the rest of the story.
As they approached my boat, I told them I have a cpl license, and that I was carrying. He asked where it was. I told him my right hip, and that my wallet was in my right back pocket. I was instructed not to make any moves for it. I then helped them tie up to my boat.
The officer then tells me to turn around and walk to the other side of my boat because he was going to board. That's where it got weird. I did so, and was then instructed to put my hands on my head, widen my stance, and lean forward. Next thing I know, my shirt comes up and he takes my pistol. Another officer unloaded it and put it in their boat. We went through the drills, and he then printed me up a slip saying I was good to go.
While they were printed ting the papers, the other officers, there were 6 total, we're talking to me about my gun. Then we talked about children driving boats.
As for life jackets, I had 1 vest and 2 inflatables on board. All of which were in the front storage with my throwable. The laws are different on inflatables now. They now count as a life jacket and don't have to be worn at all times. But they still were not on deck, and it didn't matter. They only were worried about the throwable.
I have to admit, I was shaking when he took my gun, and for about an hour after. It's not a good feeling when a man takes your pistol from you from behind. They gave it back, but insisted I leave the slide locked until they were gone. I'm sure glad I do my best to obey the law. That could have been a rough stop.
Too bad you didn't have all that on video. It could have made for one entertaining fishing adventure video! ;D
I hadn't heard the laws on inflatables changed? I've been told fairly recently that they still don't count if you're not wearing them. Though I'm never surprised about a few contradictions when talking to various agencies. Pretty much par for the course. I guess I need to contact a few agencies and get a spokesperson answer about the inflatable topic. I did see (I should remind people just in case) that you have to be 16 or older I believe to use an inflatable. Better double-check that for Michigan anyway before you take my word for it.
The language in the guide is about the same for all life jackets so I still don't know why some law officers single out the throwable?? It has happened just enough over the year that I wonder if there is a seminar or something they take that stresses that?!?
I've seen a number of times when someone wearing their life jacket or not contributed to falling overboard, a boat sinking or some similar minor accident verses tragedy. I don't think I've ever seen anyone deploy a throwable in an emergency situation. I think it is extremely rare in the case of our kind of boat - open and low to the water. It probably is a little more common with bigger, high-sided boats. Maybe..?
The gun part is a great example of one reason why I'm not going to get one. I have had way too much fun already with law officers over the years. I don't need to add a hand gun to the fun. Considering what has happened over the years I don't know if I would survive a similar encounter with a gun added to the confusion and weirdness...??
You're a law-abiding citizen and yet because you have a permitted and legal gun you end up feeling more like a dangerous criminal. I can understand that some law officers would be very wary but having you turn around and put your hands on your head only to have the pistol taken from you that way would frankly put me on the wrong side of ticked off at the very beginning of the encounter. If you're fine and safe to have the gun 5 minutes before you run into them and 5 minutes after you're safe and okay to have the gun while their there. Worse comes to worse you know how to safely put your gun somewhere where it is temporarily out of the formula but still your legal gun in your possession.
It would be slightly more likely to go downhill from there as soon as they started nitpicking about anything else for me after being treated like that (might be the redhead thing?). I understand they have a job to do and it can be tough at times but that won't stop me from asking questions and even disagreeing if I'm sure I'm right and they're wrong. There's better things to do with their time AND my time than some of this.
I'm glad you're taking it fairly well but I would have been ticked off probably the rest of the fishing trip too. Being a redhead, I might have even called a supervisor later to ask if that is the normal protocol or should it be handled different, and let him/her know that I don't think it should be done that way. The stop could have easily gone differently. I'm glad for you and them that it didn't. Fishing is supposed to be fun! :)
Calling and telling someone at the home office make no difference. Might make a difference. Don't know until you try.
The laws have changed on SOME inflatables. You have to have the correct inflation valve. If I had my catalog here at home I could tell you the name of the valve (all inflatables are not made with the same inflation valves). The ones Mike has qualify under the new rule.
Whose rule is it? Do you know where it was released because I missed it somehow?
I was stopped on Belleville last week buy the coast guard (yea I said Coast Guard).... the only thing they got me on was not having 3 finger width of space between the numbers and letters on the MC numbers.... go figure.... It was during the week I thought they were just board...
I was going to say Waterfoul knew about the change for inflatables. He's the one that told me about it.
Yeah, I wasn't real happy about being disarmed in the manner I was. I was thinking to myself "What did I do wrong? I was told by the Police officer at my cpl class that I could carry on my boat, but these guys are acting like I'm being taken in to custody". There were a outlet of smaller fishing boats nearby, and they sat and watched the whole show. It was embarrassing. I know one thing, I will never carry on LSC. Not having seen the Boarder Patrol out there too. You would think that after I showed my license they would have figured I was good to go. I went through the class, was able to pass the gun board's criteria to carry a concealed weapon, so why mess with me like that?
Them fish on Muskegon so bad you need to carry? ;D ;D
With that many on the boat they may have been doing some training so you became the class of the day.
I'm cool with it. I know they were just doing their job. If I was their class, they got a good one with the pistol involved.
Quote from: dartag on May 27, 2014, 06:07:41 AM
Them fish on Muskegon so bad you need to carry? ;D ;D
With that many on the boat they may have been doing some training so you became the class of the day.
It's not that it's that bad, I just like to carry, because I can. Funny comment though! We have gangster bass! Meaner than a smallmouth. Lol!
OK, I just read the new regs (*they are in the West Marine catalog on page 165) issued by the Coast Guard and I was not entirely correct with Mike Szot.
And I quote:
"water activated automatic inflatables with non-1F inflators have to be worn to be counted in the vessels inventory of PFD's."
Our own Coastal Series (which is what Mike and I have) do not fit into this category (sorry Mike). So the Coasties that pulled him over weren't up on the new regs I guess.
Quote from: Mike S. on May 25, 2014, 12:36:25 PM
I was out on Muskegon this morning with my dad. During a run across the lake, I was stopped by the Coast Guard. I wasn't doing anything wrong, it was just a routine check. After checking everything, he asked for my throwable. I have one, it was just in the port side rod locker. He told me that it HAS to be on deck at all times. They told me to sit on it while driving. Has anybody else ever heard that?
Was their throwable on the deck?
Probably not.
You guys are welcome to think what you will, but for me, I am absolutely infuriated by men/women entrusted with authority who forget that they are charged with the task to "protect and serve," but let that authority go to their heads.
I have been stopped quite a few times on the water. Some of those times, I was doing something that I shouldn't have been doing and I understood and didn't have any problem with the officer. However there have been a few times that I was stopped for BS reasons, or no reason at all.
Our Nation became the Great Nation that it is/was because it was an experiment in self-government. Government of the people and by the people. When I encounter an ignorant POS who doesn't understand this simple Governmental truth, I feel compelled to challenge them (legally of course), respect is earned not imputed by a badge or position. This approach has cost me to pay fines in the past, but its well worth the money to have an opportunity to educate a moron.
I have challenged a no wake violation in court, and i have challenged an officer on the water, but in order to do so, you must be certain that you understand the law and can demonstrate your compliance with it. There are many in the law enforcement community who understand the duty they are charged with and my hat is off to them. The other idiots should be fired, or even imprisoned.
Quote from: LAPORTE on May 27, 2014, 02:02:29 AM
I was stopped on Belleville last week buy the coast guard (yea I said Coast Guard).... the only thing they got me on was not having 3 finger width of space between the numbers and letters on the MC numbers.... go figure.... It was during the week I thought they were just board...
The Coast Guard on Belleville Lake?!? What the blazes was the Coast Guard doing on Belleville Lake?? That is a weird one for sure...
bigjc, I can understand your feelings. I have questioned officers more than once. I've regretted it a couple times.
Other times I was irritated enough to want to challenge them but had a feeling things might go a lot worse if I did challenge them based on the behavior being demonstrated already. Even if you know they know that whole incident is BS they have guns and they can make your life hard if they feel like it. That's just how some people are in all walks of life...
A few times I have been in a ridiculous situation and just sat there with my mouth shut waiting for it to be over... that is because I seem to attract a good, weird, ridiculous encounter every couple years... I may write a book some day about it.
I have also had a number of okay interactions and even some funny ones (or at least, they ended funny though they may not have started that way...). I've met lots of COs and other agency officers that I actually liked and enjoyed talking to. There are even a few I can call and ask questions when I need to be sure about things. I prefer that to the opposite end of the spectrum. I also figure it doesn't hurt to try to facilitate some information sharing and putting a little effort into trying to make things better for all of us who just want enjoy a day of fishing or hunting.
Quote from: Genie on May 27, 2014, 03:20:43 PM
Quote from: Mike S. on May 25, 2014, 12:36:25 PM
I was out on Muskegon this morning with my dad. During a run across the lake, I was stopped by the Coast Guard. I wasn't doing anything wrong, it was just a routine check. After checking everything, he asked for my throwable. I have one, it was just in the port side rod locker. He told me that it HAS to be on deck at all times. They told me to sit on it while driving. Has anybody else ever heard that?
Was their throwable on the deck?
Personally... I've found from my own experience that pointing that kind of stuff out doesn't actually win you any points... it can win you less fishing time and various scary threats... ::)
I got boarded yesterday by the Coast Guard. They just did a routine safety check and asked me some survey questions. They were impressed by the age of my boat and how well I have kept it up. I did say it still was in need of some work but I did say them was do I work on my boat or go out fishing?? They agreed with my choice about going out fishing. They checked me as I was like the only boat that was more than a mile out from shoreline. Most boats were up shallow. I just had to check a couple of off shore rock piles that I had some luck on where I had found pre spawn females staging on these rock piles. It didn't disappoint either. There were some big girls there. During my conversation with them they had told me how upset people get when they get boarded. They told me that I was about the "coolest customer" they ever had so far this year. I told them that if they had passed me by and didn't check, I would have been disappointed which I would have been. I get checked once a year by the DNR so as to keep my credentials up and I usually get pulled over at least once a year by Wayne County in the Lower Detroit River just for routine safety checks. My advice to any one out there is to COOPERATE!!! Their job is hard enough with out getting hassled. It's for your safety.
BD ;D
Pretty much SOP for them to disarm and empty gun. Happened to me coming back into Muskegon from White during a tx. Mine was in glove box, which is where boat registration was. Asked if he could board, said yes, took gun handed it to there boat and finished inspection. Asked to see our life jackets, we pointed at our chests, we had em on. Gave me the same crap about throwable and somebody could sit on it, I wanted to ask if he wanted to sit that much higher running lake MI in a bassboat but didn't. I'm with you about all the looks from other boats like you're a criminal, I carried the inspection paperwork to the weigh-in cause I expected to get protested for a violation. Last thing he did was put empty gun, slide locked back, empty mag and 8 loose rounds in the glove box and quickly left my boat and untied. I understand SOPs (USMC vet) but c'mon.
But... it sounds like they didn't have you turn around with your hands over your head and then remove the gun from behind with no warning from your actual person. That is pretty unnerving sounding to me. Seems it could have been handled much better.
I would have been mad had they emptied the magazine and given me everything back loose. That's garbage there. But, hey, they're doing their job. Had I been a bass boat driving drug smuggler, I guess there could have been a problem.
Quote from: Mike S. on May 27, 2014, 04:21:30 AM
I was going to say Waterfoul knew about the change for inflatables. He's the one that told me about it.
Yeah, I wasn't real happy about being disarmed in the manner I was. I was thinking to myself "What did I do wrong? I was told by the Police officer at my cpl class that I could carry on my boat, but these guys are acting like I'm being taken in to custody". There were a outlet of smaller fishing boats nearby, and they sat and watched the whole show. It was embarrassing. I know one thing, I will never carry on LSC. Not having seen the Boarder Patrol out there too. You would think that after I showed my license they would have figured I was good to go. I went through the class, was able to pass the gun board's criteria to carry a concealed weapon, so why mess with me like that?
If you get stopped in an Auto or boat and the cops are going to do more than just say "Hi" chances are they are going to want you to disarm....It's for your safety and theirs....They could find something that may cause an escalation or things could get testy and it's always better to have everything out in the open right from the start........literally.....
The way they went about disarming you is the safest for everyone involved......Think about the kid in the drivers seat of a car that is getting pulled over and is nervous so struggles dropping his magazine and clearing the chamber....Could be ugly...To he honest I would just as soon have the officer disarm me with my hands on my head that way there is no misinterpretation of the events and I catch a bullet from some rookie......Having the LEO clear the weapon is pretty much what I have heard at all the NRA classes that I have sat in on....
I will be training in June with Border patrol and Local LEOs....I will ask for more clarification at that event....but I am sure it is Standard Operating procedure for the LEO to take charge of the CPL holders weapon...
OK.!!!..Here is the quote from the MCRGO Lawyer.....Do what you want but I tend to follow his way of thinking.....There is no standard way being taught to Michigan law enforcement officers on how to deal with CPL holders.
The Michigan Commission on Law Enforcement Standards (MCOLES) has not yet developed uniform training standards for dealing with law-abiding citizens who are carrying during a traffic stop. This is what I recommend to my students.
It's a basic rule of firearm safety that we don't hand a loaded gun to another person. In dealing with a LEO, especially one not used to lawful citizens carrying, you do NOT want to hand him your gun. Having your gun in your hand is a dangerous situation for him, and for you (and especially for other officers arriving as you are handing it over). Allow the officer to remove it from you; it allows him the control he demands, and it is safer for everyone.
In fact, I recommend that if an officer instructs someone to hand the officer a loaded gun, one should offer to let the officer remove it. You don't want to create a scenario during a traffic stop, where the LEO tells you to hand over your pistol. His partner's watching from the passenger side, therefore he can't hear the instruction; the partner sees you pull your gun. The partner is going to stick his gun in your ear and could ruin your whole day.
If the LEO repeats his direction that you hand your pistol to him, first check for the partner or back-up. Then do it, being careful not to (1) put your finger anywhere near the trigger (2) sweep yourself with the barrel, or (3) sweep LEO with the barrel. It is nearly impossible in a car to accomplish all three.
Take off you entire holster if possible and hand over the package. Perhaps set the pistol down somewhere and step away from it.
I would recommend saying "Officer, I'm uncomfortable handing you a loaded pistol, but I have no problem if you wish to remove it from me yourself." It may be impossible to disarm while sitting in car without sweeping someone with the muzzle.
If the LEO wants to disarm you during the traffic stop, let him. I wouldn't expect the LEO to reload your gun after the stop. I would expect he would hand it back unloaded.
Quote from: djkimmel on May 28, 2014, 06:59:33 PM
But... it sounds like they didn't have you turn around with your hands over your head and then remove the gun from behind with no warning from your actual person. That is pretty unnerving sounding to me. Seems it could have been handled much better.
It wasn't on my person. We were told to stay away from the glove box. No need to spread eagle me to disarm me at that time. I'm just curious what the law is about allowing them to board. Is a no to "do you mind me coming aboard?" An automatic consent to search?
Quote from: fish hound on May 29, 2014, 07:01:12 PM
Quote from: djkimmel on May 28, 2014, 06:59:33 PM
But... it sounds like they didn't have you turn around with your hands over your head and then remove the gun from behind with no warning from your actual person. That is pretty unnerving sounding to me. Seems it could have been handled much better.
It wasn't on my person. We were told to stay away from the glove box. No need to spread eagle me to disarm me at that time. I'm just curious what the law is about allowing them to board. Is a no to "do you mind me coming aboard?" An automatic consent to search?
There was a fair amount of recent discussion on that topic on lakestclair.net. At some point someone posted that he is a coast guard member and said they can board you at anytime based on the different rules on the water. There was a lot more to it than that but A) I have no idea if the person really is a coast guard member, and B) I'm having enough fun in other matters with various government agencies so I didn't do my usual due diligence to confirm what the person wrote is accurate.
I don't doubt their regulations are different than other LE officers on land. I know Conservation Officers do have more freedom and authority in similar areas than other regular LE officers. I just don't know details. I wouldn't start quoting until I had a chance to look them up, or call and confirm with a spokesperson.
I don't plan on doing that anytime soon on this issue. Someone else could look into this if they like. Things do change, and often we share information back and forth for years that turns out to not be accurate.
I'm still trying to figure out what the coast guard was doing on Belleville Lake?? I could have sworn I was told by someone who would know that they only have authority up to the end of navigable channels off the Great Lakes...?
Quote from: motocross269 on May 29, 2014, 04:11:42 PM
Quote from: Mike S. on May 27, 2014, 04:21:30 AM
I was going to say Waterfoul knew about the change for inflatables. He's the one that told me about it.
Yeah, I wasn't real happy about being disarmed in the manner I was. I was thinking to myself "What did I do wrong? I was told by the Police officer at my cpl class that I could carry on my boat, but these guys are acting like I'm being taken in to custody". There were a outlet of smaller fishing boats nearby, and they sat and watched the whole show. It was embarrassing. I know one thing, I will never carry on LSC. Not having seen the Boarder Patrol out there too. You would think that after I showed my license they would have figured I was good to go. I went through the class, was able to pass the gun board's criteria to carry a concealed weapon, so why mess with me like that?
If you get stopped in an Auto or boat and the cops are going to do more than just say "Hi" chances are they are going to want you to disarm....It's for your safety and theirs....They could find something that may cause an escalation or things could get testy and it's always better to have everything out in the open right from the start........literally.....
The way they went about disarming you is the safest for everyone involved......Think about the kid in the drivers seat of a car that is getting pulled over and is nervous so struggles dropping his magazine and clearing the chamber....Could be ugly...To he honest I would just as soon have the officer disarm me with my hands on my head that way there is no misinterpretation of the events and I catch a bullet from some rookie......Having the LEO clear the weapon is pretty much what I have heard at all the NRA classes that I have sat in on....
I will be training in June with Border patrol and Local LEOs....I will ask for more clarification at that event....but I am sure it is Standard Operating procedure for the LEO to take charge of the CPL holders weapon...
OK.!!!..Here is the quote from the MCRGO Lawyer.....Do what you want but I tend to follow his way of thinking.....
There is no standard way being taught to Michigan law enforcement officers on how to deal with CPL holders.
The Michigan Commission on Law Enforcement Standards (MCOLES) has not yet developed uniform training standards for dealing with law-abiding citizens who are carrying during a traffic stop. This is what I recommend to my students.
It's a basic rule of firearm safety that we don't hand a loaded gun to another person. In dealing with a LEO, especially one not used to lawful citizens carrying, you do NOT want to hand him your gun. Having your gun in your hand is a dangerous situation for him, and for you (and especially for other officers arriving as you are handing it over). Allow the officer to remove it from you; it allows him the control he demands, and it is safer for everyone.
In fact, I recommend that if an officer instructs someone to hand the officer a loaded gun, one should offer to let the officer remove it. You don't want to create a scenario during a traffic stop, where the LEO tells you to hand over your pistol. His partner's watching from the passenger side, therefore he can't hear the instruction; the partner sees you pull your gun. The partner is going to stick his gun in your ear and could ruin your whole day.
If the LEO repeats his direction that you hand your pistol to him, first check for the partner or back-up. Then do it, being careful not to (1) put your finger anywhere near the trigger (2) sweep yourself with the barrel, or (3) sweep LEO with the barrel. It is nearly impossible in a car to accomplish all three.
Take off you entire holster if possible and hand over the package. Perhaps set the pistol down somewhere and step away from it.
I would recommend saying "Officer, I'm uncomfortable handing you a loaded pistol, but I have no problem if you wish to remove it from me yourself." It may be impossible to disarm while sitting in car without sweeping someone with the muzzle.
If the LEO wants to disarm you during the traffic stop, let him. I wouldn't expect the LEO to reload your gun after the stop. I would expect he would hand it back unloaded.
Why am I not surprised that there aren't standards... In a significant area such as this there should be standards. The lack of standards, adding to more people buying guns and carrying pretty much guarantees we will continue to see more news about people being shot in circumstances they shouldn't have.
I decided a long time ago I would try to make the world a slightly better place through work in the outdoors/fishing arena but gun safety is an area if I had more time and resources that I could take up as another goal. I hope someone else is working on that because 1 needlessly lost life is 1 too many.
It is an interesting topic for discussion, and sometimes just discussing these types of things on public forums can have some impact down the road. I appreciate people piping in with their opinions, thoughts and information.
I remember seeing a really interesting video on how to handle your gun in public restrooms. Being a 'non-carrier' I hadn't really thought of that but after watching the video and seeing the examples of what went wrong in the news from embarrassing to much worse I was impressed with the effort and thought it was one that could be taken up as a standard in gun safety training for people who carry. I'll have to track that link down to keep handy for later websites.
For the situation of having your boat boarded if you carry a gun, I like the idea of making sure they're aware immediately and if it's in a glove box, don't go near it. If they want to remove it, and tell you that is what they want to do first, then I could live with that. If I have it on my person I like the idea of the removable holster and need to think about the difference in handing it to them verses having them take it from me.
I don't see the necessity in having my hands over my head, or being told to turn my back to them. I have no idea what is going to happen, and can't see. That seems even less safe that other alternatives. Who wants to sneak up on an armed person and try to take their gun? An idiot maybe...? That's about all I can picture being very frank, law officer or not. You don't sneak up on people and grab there gun from behind.
If I'm told exactly what they want to do and it is not ridiculous there are better ways to handle it that to me are much safer because none of us will be on the same edge we could easily be with the way Mike was 'disarmed.' That frankly does not sound professional to me. Someone does that to me and the odds go way up that I jump or make some other sudden movement that increases the risk someone else also overreacts. I don't like people coming up behind me and doing things I don't expect. Not one bit.
The first two things I thought of after reading Mike S.'s experience where - either they need more and better training, or they just flew into the Great Lakes from South Florida... I already shared the next thing I thought which is I'm glad I don't carry. I really have had more than enough fun with law enforcement over the years. Adding a gun to the equation would be like storing a bucket of gasoline next to the campfire... inside the camper... Asking for it!
I haven't taken the gun back on the water with me. I have thought about contacting the Coast Guard and telling them what happened. Not to complain or play victim, but in hopes that they could come up with a better way of handling that particular situation. Like I said, I understand why he did it, but it was one of the most on edge moments of my life. I also understand that being a cpl holder changes a lot of things for me in situations like that one. I give up a lot of rights in order to exercise that right. I figured this post may be helpful for others that carry so that they are prepared for this if ever they are faced with it on the water.
I'm a little late to this thread (planting corn all week) but I feel the need to comment.
The whole "hands on your head and widen your stance while I move your shirt and take your weapon" is way over the top and I'm a little stunned by it.
I too carry sometimes when I fish (it is Muskegon) and I cannot imagine having to go through that ordeal.
Props to Mike for not flying off the handle. I hope I would be as cordial.
I don't have a cpl so I don't know. Do you have to notify an officer you are carrying?
YES!! You have to tell any officer that you have a cpl whether you are armed or not. It's a $100 fine for the first offense of not telling them, and then the fine goes up ultimately leading to the loss of your cpl. It doesn't matter if you are a passenger in a car or boat. You have to tell any enforcement officers that you have the license and whether or not you are carrying. It's the law.
It would definitely be the first thing or darn near close to the first thing I would say if I had a CPL.
Even though I don't, whenever I'm pulled over on the road I always keep both hands on the top of the steering wheel while I wait to see what I was pulled over for this time...
I guess I should add that to whenever I'm stopped on the water from now on too? Though sometimes I have a fishing rod in my hand. I guess just make sure they can always see both hands out in the open.
The officer is going to do what he feels will give him the Tactical advantage to ensure he goes home safely to his family...I probably have a different view of this because of my life experiences but I am not going to take a bullet because someone's feelings may get hurt....I don't know you from John Doe...
How do you think the Officer should take control of a loaded weapon.?..Allow you to handle the weapon while you unload it.?..Never going to happen....Common sense safety practices are never hand a loaded weapon to another person.... I'm curious for you guys that think that things were handled wrong if you had the power how would you have the SOP read????....
Here is a video put out by Massad Ayoob on dealing with a traffic stop....IF you are a CPL carrier I probably don't have to tell you who he is...
Training shouldn't stop with your CPL class....8 hours isn't going to give you the tools that you need to guarantee you don't end up in jail doing what you believe is well within your rights...I don't know how many thousands of rounds I have sent downrange in the Military but that has far from prepared me for dealing with the ins and outs of deploying a weapon in a situation that chances are I am going to have to sit in a court of law or the very least a prosecuters office and justify my actions....I read a lot and try to get some type of training every week....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVReVYMLH7E&feature=kp (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVReVYMLH7E&feature=kp)
Reverend Tom is well versed in this I am sure...Maybe he will stop by and give his two cents worth....I will hit him up on facebook...
The officer is going to do what he feels will give him the Tactical advantage to ensure he goes home safely to his family...I probably have a different view of this because of my life experiences but I am not going to take a bullet because someone's feelings may get hurt....I don't know you from John Doe...
My feelings hurt? Treating a citizen you encounter on a random boat inspection like he is Thuggy G is a lot more than hurting feelings. It smacks of martial law.
How do you think the Officer should take control of a loaded weapon.?..Allow you to handle the weapon while you unload it.?..Never going to happen....Common sense safety practices are never hand a loaded weapon to another person.... I'm curious for you guys that think that things were handled wrong if you had the power how would you have the SOP read????....
I think the Officer should have told Mike that he had to disarm him. Then he should have asked Mike to please keep his hands to the opposite side of his body. Then the Officer could take the weapon. There, wasn't that easy? Hands on head, spread eagle and lean forward like I am already a perp? BULL Heck, why not go ahead and frisk me while they're at it. It's already 90% done anyway.
Is the Coastie disarming him because of risk of accidental discharge, or because he's worried that this random boat owner may suddenly go for his weapon and try to kill six Coast Guard members? If the worry is that the random boat owner may suddenly go Jihad, is there a precedent for it? A history of Michigan boat owners snapping and shooting LEO's performing random boat inspections?
Training shouldn't stop with your CPL class....8 hours isn't going to give you the tools that you need to guarantee you don't end up in jail doing what you believe is well within your rights...I don't know how many thousands of rounds I have sent downrange in the Military but that has far from prepared me for dealing with the ins and outs of deploying a weapon in a situation that chances are I am going to have to sit in a court of law or the very least a prosecuters office and justify my actions....I read a lot and try to get some type of training every week....I don't get training every week. I have a family and work that takes up a significant amount of my time. I am proficient with my weapon and have been trained on the whens and wheres.
I am as pro cop as anybody. I have an in-laws who are cops, friends who are cops, and one of my best fishing buddies is a retired cop. I have heard countless stories of the garbage they deal with. But I can honestly say that not one of the guys I know would have handled that situation the same. Treating citizens with respect is not too much to ask.
Wow! I think you're more bothered about it than I am. The only thing that made the situation uncomfortable was all of it. I sat and thought about the cpl class where I specifically asked the Police officer if I could have my gun on the boat. He said yes. It's no different than my car.....As long as I'm not crossing the borders. I wondered if I was going to get frisked. There were several thoughts running through my head at that time. Am I going to jail? If so, why? I'm legal. Everything is legit.
I would have mu have rather faced him while I was being disarmed. It is a very uncomfortable feeling having a man, officer or not, disarm you with your back to them. I did nothing wrong. I honestly wasn't even speeding on the lake. It was chilly so we were just cruising to our next spot. I told them I was carrying long before they even got next to me. Then I even helped tie my boat to theirs before he decided to climb aboard. If I was going to go on a shooting spree, I surely wouldn't let them tie up to me first.
I totally understand the responsibility that I have taken on by deciding to have my cpl license. I understand a law officer being concerned for their own safety. I get it. But there should be a concern for my feelings as well. Taking the gun out of play, totally understandable. The gun board saw to it that I am worthy of carrying that gun, so I'm obviously not a dangerous man. I obviously don't have a bad past.
I don't want anyone on here to feel like I'm trying to play victim. I don't feel that way at all. I told the story so others will be prepared for what may happen if you are carrying on the water. I was upset about being treated in a criminal manner to be disarmed. I'm an honest, hard working, family man. I'm not a criminal. My gun on me is for mine and my family's protection if the need ever came up. It is also for the protection of everyone around me if ever needed. I don't believe there will ever come a time when I will need to use it, but I will carry it when I want to. Why? Because I can. It is a right that we all have, and a right I will exercise.
Quote from: Mike S. on May 31, 2014, 11:10:25 AM
Wow! I think you're more bothered about it than I am.
I'm not sure if you're responding to me Mike, but you bet I'm bothered by how you were treated.
Didn't want to get in a pis sing match with this...I pOster a statement by the Michigan Gun owners association lawyer and a video put out by the NRA authority on legal issues ....you guys take it for what it is worth I am going fishing tommorrow for the first time this year so life is good..
There's nothing wrong with sharing opinions. Even differing opinions. As long as we keep it on the topic we're accomplishing something good.
I'm glad that you shared your experience Mike S. I continue to feel it was handled poorly and am now aware that things are less controlled and organized in this area than I thought they were. If I had the time I would call for some official word from the Coast Guard.
I sure hope how you were treated is not standard operating procedure with them?!? If I was a carrier I would immediately work to get something like this changed/fixed. My safety and feelings are every bit as important as the safety and feelings of those Coast Guard officers. That's definitely my opinion. I've had just enough run ins with law officers who were not just going by the book, and enough smarts in my own areas of interest to know that continued training is very important to every line of work, but probably critically important when it deals with firearms. Just read the news every day and you can see that.
Maybe this topic and discussion could even bring about some improvement for the safety of everyone in these types of situations. I have no doubt if you had a video of your experience and put it on the Internet it would probably start a firestorm that would get ugly. I'm glad that won't happen on this website, but yes, please share your opinions pro or con. That's all I'm doing. Sharing my opinions.
I watched the video from moto. That's a very good and helpful video. It also demonstrates the big difference between what seemed like a real smart, fair handling of the situation verses the unprofessional, unnerving way it was handled with Mike S.
Communication, calm and openness on BOTH sides makes these situations a lot safer and less upsetting. Sneak approach with no warning - unsafe, dangerous and a great way to create citizens who don't trust or appreciate your tactics. Again, in my opinion.
No use to give any lip service to them, just yes sir no sir, thank you sir. I was checked on LSC two weeks ago the 360 check. When they pulled up and asked to board and check the no problem sir. I told them I had a CCP and there was a weapon on board.They checked that and DL out of state, Thank you for informing us. I was wearing the blow up and my parnter. Throwable in Starboard rod box on top. They just told me it should be out, Yes Sir No Problem. No rope attached but 50' cord next to it. One of the officers asked me why I needed a weapon to go fishing. Sir there are alot of bad people in the world beside I didn't want some crack head breaking in the car and stealing it. No problem what so ever other than the 360 check. When they left I thanked them and told em to go get some bad guys. They laughted and left. Yes Sir No Sir alway works. Alot of the young guys on power trip with the badge and gun but just doing there job. They will grow out of it with time. ;D Think they were caught a little flat footed due to flares on board all up to date. Plus hand held VHF set on 16 as required by federal law if VHF on board. I will have the throwable out if I see em coming next time with a rope clipped :D :D :D Use it for "Weather Watch" alerts :o
So, did they disarm you? Did they take your gun? Or did they just ask you why you have it with you?
No Sir, asked wear it was located, informed them in the back Starboard storeage box. The officer did write the ser # down on a pad to check I guess to see if stolen :D They did check my Carry Permit and DL and make notes. No sweat, all legal. The CCP from NC is honored by MI. and MI's honored buy. Don't know what the big deal is, thats the reason for the CCP. Most of the LEO in our area have no problem as long as they are informed from the jump start as the law requires. They know the carrier has been checked for record and not a convicted felon. Most times carry a LPC in pocket when on the road, and a Glock in the truck. Thats to get em off me till I can get to the truck and get the big gun ;D ;D ;D Come on down to NC your CCP is welcomed places the law allows. A boat is one of them, and guys you can power load your heart out we use hard concert and long ramps with rock beds under them. ;D Man I enjoy the fishing up in your neck of the woods. It's great. Hope to get back many more times.
There may be some 'cultural' differences based on location at times... ;D
Glad your experience was less stressful. I think most of the time that is how they go as you describe. Just not always. We probably tend to remember the times things are stressful more than the times they're not.
Glad you felt welcome enough that you still want to come back!! I hope some day we start building new ramps designed to work with modern boats better. I may work on that a little as time goes by. There's never a shortage of things to work on and improve.
I sometimes do hear that people may think things are never 'good' enough or that we don't acknowledge how good we have things. I recognize the good things. I don't think it's so bad to want to make them even better. :)
No problem here what so ever. That what the CCP is for and Mi does honor most states that honor theirs ;D as it should be. I just have a hard time find guys that are willing to travel 12 hours to fish LSC :o I tell em once they do it's a short drive going and the long drive is home. :D You guys got a great fishery in Mi and should protected it. Y'all just need to send you DNR people down south to learn to pure hard concert with wings with rock beds so you can power load :D That's a joke guys. No problem sticking to the law just a pain in the bass in the wind and cold water when power loading is so easy and quick. May fix most of the problems at the launch ramps on Saturdays and Sundays. Think next time may just get a lawn chair and set up on the grass and Clinton River Cut Off (Crocker) with a cooler and just enjoy and laugh at the fire drill in the "wells" :D Never seen anything like it.
I've seen the launch chair entertainment before at boat ramps. Some of what I've seen though isn't really entertaining. People could use a little more patience.
After I drop my fishing partner for the day off at the dock I usually use that time to organize my boat and store my rods....Gives me something to do to take my mind off of the Chaos..
I'm usually going to get the trailer though in the years and times I stayed in the boat I like similar distractions verses watching humanity not always at its best... ;D
Ohhhhhh......don't get me started on boat launches.
You just happen to run into a "Dick Head" green behind the ears with a heavy badge :D sad but all state have em. :'(
Easy Law change :D Unload em stay out and off the dock until your parnter get back and proceed to pick em up no more than 30 seconds :D Power load em hook the winch strap after easing 5 seconds and proceed to the parking lot or tie down area :D Anybody on the ramp more than 1 minute will get a ticket;D Get rid of the green and red pole. Load Em Rack Em and Stack Em. You guys got to have a little time with us out of stater's. Never heard of such mess ;D ;D Now that I have learned or think I have learned I will try abid by the law. ;) Y'all boy sure make loading a boat and unloading just a little tuff. And what the hell is a Well they called Boat Dock the other 49 State :D :D Is you boat in the well :D Hell no the well is back in NC pumping water :D No it's a dock :D Just poking fun guys. Love LSC just diff ways ??? Hopefully the next time with USCG AND OR LOCAL LAW will be the same. Always try to stick to LEO in the area.Y'all just got give us a little time to learn the MI ways. I'm trying ???