Great Lakes Bass Fishing Forum

A new bass angler rankings site claims these are their top 10 professional bass anglers over the past two years in all the three major circuits - B.A.S.S., FLW and PAA. I don't know how they accounted for the different boater number totals, or if they did? One challenge of trying to rank different circuits and even different events against another.

I know if I ranked against who I would rather fish head-to-head against in an event, my order would be much different. Who would you vote as number one? Do you accept their same order as listed above, or do you think it is off? Do rankings even matter or mean anything?

Quote from: djkimmel on October 14, 2011, 03:36:33 PM
A new bass angler rankings site claims these are their top 10 professional bass anglers over the past two years in all the three major circuits - B.A.S.S., FLW and PAA. I don't know how they accounted for the different boater number totals, or if they did? One challenge of trying to rank different circuits and even different events against another.

I know if I ranked against who I would rather fish head-to-head against in an event, my order would be much different. Who would you vote as number one? Do you accept their same order as listed above, or do you think it is off? Do rankings even matter or mean anything?

Great observation! I asked the same question.  I'll post my question to them and their response..

My Comment: Re: Your ranking system.  I noticed that 7 of your top 10 are FLW guys.  Does your algorithm control for the larger fields in FLW?

If I understand correctly, your system would tend to inflate results in a larger field like FLW.  For example, if an angler finished 5th in both tournaments, he would beat 96.7% of the field in FLW but only 95% of the field in BASS.   This might be a reason that so many FLW guys are in the top 10.

You might solve this problem by using a dummy variable for circuit.  Hope his helps.


Bass Rankings Response:       Thank you for your comment.  It is greatly appreciated.  Our algorithm is based on the only consistent variable comparable between different trails, that is percentage of field that the angler beat.  We feel at BassRankings.com to have the most plausible and transparent way to do things, you must not start to let opinion play on statistics.  Once you start to play on strength of field, you must then start to consider strength of the fishery, strength of frontal conditions, arguments that FLW has more early spring time tournaments so FLW are better spawn anglers, or BASS goes to better fisheries, etc.  It starts to get real messy, debatable, and opinion based.  We do not deny that these are not variables that play on results, because they are, but when too many variables get introduced that try to skew numbers for more desirable results, in our findings only add for the likelihood of skewed results. 

        The only consistency is the strict one, in which we base our algorithm on, percentage of field the angler beat in their tournament of reflective fishery.  We understand this is opinion on our end as well, but it is in effort to level the playing field as much as possible statistically speaking.  From trail to trail and tournament to tournament, this is reflected both from the top of the list in how well an angler did, as well as from the bottom of the list of how poor they did.  So where it may seem favorable toward FLW guys, it is a matter of recent consistency of many of the guys that happen to fish FLW currently.  This is no favoritism toward one trail over another, and just on how things shook out.  Other rankings are currently showing the same outcome for similar reasons.

       What we have posted are simply the most recent two year trends.  Try playing with the custom sort and look at how results differ by lengthening or shortening the search variables.   We appreciate your input and we value your opinion. 

Thank you again for your feedback,

Bass Rankings Staff.


On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 7:46 PM, <form@bassrankings.com> wrote:
A visitor feedback email from BassRankings.com 1318548712

Submitted: October 13, 2011 at 11:31:52 PM

They didn't completely get it which means they may not have gone far in statistics class ;D

Strange that you didn't mention that you thought they were favoring FLW because of how you feel about them but because of a basic statistics assumption error and they went right to favoring one circuit over another emotionally basically. PAA doesn't have a chance! Too few events with too few competitors.

However, based on their answer I would suggest someone enter one event, win it and they will be the number one angler in the world!  :D

I forgot to add my 0.02 on their response.  It makes sense that they should not take into account subjective variables like season, etc.  But field size is easily quantified and objective.  It seems unfair to handicap anglers who compete on smaller circuits. One could argue that the smaller circuit (e.g., BASS Elite) may have even "stronger" competition.

Quote from: djkimmel on October 14, 2011, 03:55:12 PM
They didn't completely get it which means they may not have gone far in statistics class ;D

I felt the same way.  They treated my suggestion to include a dummy variable as if I were the dummy.

That is easily a good argument considering who I would rather fish against on any given day verses who wouldn't concern me anywhere near as much! When you are doing it the way they state, field size exception should be taken along with number of events fished compared to other anglers. Otherwise, statistically, their ranking is not very meaningful unless they just want a lot of traffic? Then, they better install a forum so people can debate the heck out of it!! ;D

Quote from: dominater on October 14, 2011, 04:05:14 PM

Quote from: djkimmel on October 14, 2011, 03:55:12 PM
They didn't completely get it which means they may not have gone far in statistics class ;D

I felt the same way.  They treated my suggestion to include a dummy variable as if I were the dummy.

Like I said, they didn't go far in statistics class. It's them, not you. :)

Either way, anyone who only fishes PAA will probably never make it near the top of the list the way they are doing it. Weird that they put so much effort into collecting all that information and so little into simple math and statistics?!? Maybe they are truly altruistic individuals who didn't like math? ;D

     Statistics schmatistics. How can the angler (KVD) who won Angler of the Year and the Bassmasters Classic the last two years NOT be at the top of the list?
     To rate by simply taking the percentage of the field an angler beat is just plain dumb. FLW still allows anyone, including local amateurs for individual tournaments, to enter, don't they? So the field is inflated with amateurs who have almost no chance of winning. How does that make the guys at the top better?
     Back to the drawing board guys (at that site).
     

Exactly. Unclear what they were thinking here from top to bottom.

Quote from: cameraguy on October 15, 2011, 09:00:29 AM
     Statistics schmatistics. How can the angler (KVD) who won Angler of the Year and the Bassmasters Classic the last two years NOT be at the top of the list?
     To rate by simply taking the percentage of the field an angler beat is just plain dumb. FLW still allows anyone, including local amateurs for individual tournaments, to enter, don't they? So the field is inflated with amateurs who have almost no chance of winning. How does that make the guys at the top better?
     Back to the drawing board guys (at that site).
     

I am not disagreeing with you on KVD's greatness and he is the GOAT no doubt.....
But.....As far as your FLW comments allowing Amateur and Semi pros in....I would say that the locals have scored pretty well on the tournaments that were held in this region.....
FLW made some rules changes last year I believe to keep the locals from coming in and cleaning house regionally.....

Yes they did. I don't mind 'cherry-picking' myself only because bass tournament fishing is about who is best during that event. It is a brutally honest sport, all things considered. I also think it is good for the sport to keep giving new people a shot. It gets boring for me if the same people compete the same every year.

I do realize it is up to each business to run it the way they think they need to for their model and intended customers. I'm not really getting into any debate about whose circuit anglers are better, what lake is tougher or easier and all that. But it is clearly an issue to do a straight percentage with a wide variation in field size unless maybe you are dealing with thousands and thousand of entries. The sample size of tournaments and anglers is just too small to do a straight percentage and not skew the results.

Of course that is the ranking people's call too. I will still just go by my own ranking of who I'd rather go up against if I absolutely wanted to win.

I actually always seemed to fish better more often against better competition. People would complain about a local event saying, 'I heard Kevin is going to fish this tournament! That's not fair! He's a professional.' I would just say, 'I doubt he has the time now to fish our little tournament... but if he did that would be cool!'

Quote from: motocross269 on October 15, 2011, 03:02:39 PM

Quote from: cameraguy on October 15, 2011, 09:00:29 AM
     Statistics schmatistics. How can the angler (KVD) who won Angler of the Year and the Bassmasters Classic the last two years NOT be at the top of the list?
     To rate by simply taking the percentage of the field an angler beat is just plain dumb. FLW still allows anyone, including local amateurs for individual tournaments, to enter, don't they? So the field is inflated with amateurs who have almost no chance of winning. How does that make the guys at the top better?
     Back to the drawing board guys (at that site).
     

...As far as your FLW comments allowing Amateur and Semi pros in....I would say that the locals have scored pretty well on the tournaments that were held in this region.....
FLW made some rules changes last year I believe to keep the locals from coming in and cleaning house regionally.....

A few guys have done okay like Steve Clapper but the majority don't do well in a three or four day tourney. It's just a whole different ball game.
If the FLW did away with the cherry picking, it still has been only one year and that site looked at two years. My point was that their method of ranking doesn't make sense in the least. FLW has bigger fields without necessarily better fields. If every angler below 50 cant catch a cold, all of those below that don't matter. Ehrler could be fishing against 500 or 1,000, if he finishes fifth in every tournament, the percentage of anglers he beats would be very high, but it doesn't mean he is better than guys fishing for BASS, which has a field around 100. There has to be more variables included.