Lets set the records straight for the last time (hopefully). We have gone around and around about % payout for different tournament circuits but it seems bbt gets brought up alot and is miss interpreted all the time. Here is each tournament from last year exactly like it is on their website. Keep in mind that Russ fishes his own tournaments and Im sure doesnt payin but his boat is included in the finally tally. You have to subtract at least $500 for his boat in the end. Also keep in mind he has people help him and they probably dont pay in that tournament either but I dont know how many so Im not going to subtract them.
Muskegon #1 75 boats $4900 payout $750 big bass payout $7500 total entry 75% payout $1850 left over
Cadillac 65 boats $4200 payout $640 big bass payout $6500 total entry 74% payout $1660 left over
White 78 boats $4900 payout $730 big bass payout $7800 total entry 72% payout $2170 left over
Grand River 65 boats $4200 payout $640 big bass payout $6500 total entry 74% payout $1660 left over
Muskegon #2 62 boats $3850 payout $620 big bass payout $6200 total entry 69%payout $1730 left over
This leaves $9070 left over
BBT payed out $6460 at the no pay classic
This leaves $ 2610
Lets take the 78 as the teams that payed $40 for membership =$3120
So the total is $5730
Remember you have to at least subtract $500 from this so the high total would be $5230
Also would have to subtract help or at least pay them for their help.
$3120 membership fees
$34000 entree fees minus Russ
$31890 payed out in tournaments
93.8% payout without memberships
86% payout with membership
not to many people add in the memberships for the % payout but here are both.
The question like others and I have brought up is it worth $5230 to run 6 tournaments. Maybe maybe not but I dont run them so I dont know how much work goes into it. I know they do have a nice weigh in trailer that wasnt cheap and a nice website so we can go back and do all of this.
These numbers are correct to the best of my knowledge. What most people do is guess about most of this so here it is in writing. You can check if you want but but most of you wont. That is why all of this just keeps going on and on.
I guess the only thing I was wrong on was that the average number of boats is only 69, my bad.
Now you know the rest of the story.
You cannot count big bass in your calculations unless it is included in the entry and I dont think it is. Also anyone who fished a qualifier paid the membership fee which was 96 teams or 192 members.
I missed that I only read that the entry was $100 didnt read down farther . Sorry I was wrong on that but here it is updated. Still isnt as bad as everyone makes it out to be.
Muskegon #1 75 boats $4900 payout $7500 total entry 65% payout $2600 left over
Cadillac 65 boats $4200 payout $6500 total entry 65% payout $2300 left over
White 78 boats $4900 payout $7800 total entry 63% payout $2900 left over
Grand River 65 boats $4200 payout $6500 total entry 65% payout $2300 left over
Muskegon #2 62 boats $3850 payout $6200 total entry 62%payout $2350 left over
This leaves $12450 left over
BBT payed out $6460 at the no pay classic
This leaves $ 5990
Lets take the 96 (although some were singles but some subs) as the teams that payed $40 for membership =$3840
So the total is $9830
Remember you have to at least subtract $500 from this so the high total would be $9330
Also would have to subtract help or at least pay them for their help dont know what that would be.
$3840 membership fees
$34000 entree fees minus Russ
$28510 payed out in tournaments
84% payout without memberships
74% payout with membership
not to many people add in the memberships for the % payout but here are both.
On the website it says 90% of paid entries so Im just guessing the extra 6% is the help. Just a guess. $8610 is the 84% If it really is 90% then it is more like $6620. If you really want to get technical lets take the white lake tournament. They payed out 14 spots, lets use the high end of that which would be 74 boats. Then the other 4 are help that didnt pay an entry. If that happens on every tournament which it does that makes the % go up pretty fast. Not saying it is right, Yes russ can fish for free but I dont think they should get to fish for free, I think they should get payed out of Russ' cut but thats another discussion. This is where most of the confusion is.
You should not subtract $500 or even $2500 because Russ and his helpers fish and dont pay the entry fee. It is all the same since they are fishing a circuit that costs $500 for free.
Right but that money really isnt there so you cant count it. Other circuits do the same thing and its not added in so this one should be no different. Like I said before Im not saying I think its the right way Im just saying it is the way it is.
yes you do have to figure those values. payouts are determined by #of boats.
if i take 100 per boat and its a 10 boat tournament - myself being the director and fishing for free - i have 900$ to payout. If i pay all of that out, its a 90% payback tournament not a 100% payback.
A free entry fee still has value - the person who got it is competing for the same purse. Its the same as if they paid the entry and then turned around and were paid the same amount back for thier services out of the total purse.
Ok so we all did the math on the regular tourneys but what about the open tournies.I think if ya add it all up you come up w another $3275. That comes outta them also. 65Added to the $5990.we come up with....$9,265. So wheres that all go.. Hey im not knocking them as a Group.they run a great tournament.Just would like to see a little be use of my hard earned money. Wish i could make 10k just buy showing up and running a circuit of that size..
Small business is the backbone of the economy. If you can't make money why do it?
IMHO if the director is making more than the person that wins there's a big problem
Quote from: skip johnson on January 30, 2010, 04:42:56 PM
IMHO if the director is making more than the person that wins there's a big problem
I'd say his marketing ability is allowing the profits. Anyone can create a product/tournament, but only the best can realize a profit.
If you dont like it dont fish it! Its a business guys, why is that hard for people to figure out?
Quote from: Ranger5Smallie on January 30, 2010, 09:10:29 PM
If you dont like it dont fish it! Its a business guys, why is that hard for people to figure out?
Ive been saying that for years. I dont know what the big deal is, everyone can do the math so if you think they ( tournament organizations) are keeping to much of the money move on to the one that best suits you. Like some one else already said they must be doing something right otherwise they wouldnt be drawing the boats. I for one like fishing BBT and and all of the others. Would I like to see more of the money go back to the anglers? Yes, but I know up front what is payed out and what is kept so I cant complain about it all I can do is fish or not fish, and I prefer to fish.
I think its safe to assume the guys that complain about BBTs payback will not fish it. I also think it is a good idea to discuss the larger trails paybacks to make other anglers aware of the actual numbers be it good or bad. I am sure some guys might not do the math for themselves or don't see around the deceptions of what a particular trail claims for their payout. It would have been nice if I was informed my first year tournament fishing which happened to be with BBT. I found out the true numbers for myself the following year and fished different tournaments that gave me more bang for my buck.
I personally have no ill feelings for any reason with BBT its just all about the numbers. I view forums such as GLB as a tool to gather information or help inform other anglers. This is important information that someone looking to decide on what circuit to fish would want to know or even guys who already fish it who might want to make a change. I have no connection with Lakedrive but I will strongly recommend that circuit due to its rep and stellar payouts. On the flip side it makes perfect sense for a westside stick such as Mr Watts to fish these tournaments over there when 9 times out of 10 they cash a check with allot of top 5 finishes. Why? because you are still taking some good money from the clueless donaters even though the director is making a killing.
Isn't it supposed to be fun? Why all this talk about money? If you can't afford it, don't do it. If you can, then have fun. If you don't like a tournament, don't fish in it. Maybe I haven't been around these tournaments very long, but it seems pretty simple to me. I'm just here to have fun. I don't have a single hobby that I make money at. This is just one more of them.
Quote from: ebond on January 31, 2010, 11:42:28 AM
NEWS FLASH!
Nobody is making money...not the participants, not the organizers, not the Internet commentators. A crash course in economics, business, and finance seems to be in order for some individuals. Even though I know that neither venture is actually profitable, I will still compete in numerous bass tournaments and try to run some worthwhile events. Call me crazy. This whole general topic is becoming quite stale.
Tournament anglers are underpaid and so are the organizers. Get over it. Seriously. Please. 8)
Very true although I know some guys just from my area that I am sure they are making money jackpotting local tourneys with minimal expenses on select lakes. One team in particular (Nelsons) made big bucks last year fishing all over no doubt about it. Also I find it hard to believe that the director of BBT bringing in over 10K for 6 events not including the opens he runs is not making money after the expenses involved. With this notion any payback on any tournament should not matter and directors can keep whatever they want as long as they draw boats.
Quote from: mikesmiph on January 31, 2010, 11:59:37 AM
Isn't it supposed to be fun? Why all this talk about money? If you can't afford it, don't do it. If you can, then have fun. If you don't like a tournament, don't fish in it. Maybe I haven't been around these tournaments very long, but it seems pretty simple to me. I'm just here to have fun. I don't have a single hobby that I make money at. This is just one more of them.
I think if your fishing the bigger trails you are a little more serious about your fishing than your average angler. If I was in it just for the fun of catching fish I wouldn't be fishing bigger events and wouldn't care as much about how much money is paid back to the anglers. Even though I do enjoy that part of it what really gets my blood pumping is catching a big bag against good competition and cashing a nice check for my success. If you think that bass fisherman don't care about how much of there money is paid back I think you are mistaken. This is a bass forum and this is a topic that should be discussed.
Are you serious bond?
What the heck are you talkin' about?
Your going to be banking off of that stupid membership fee that you are charging for that huron valley crap circuit your running. Don't think that you can fool us with your gibberish.
On this new side conversation...Maybe a few of us have been the exceptions but I know for a fact that the Nelson's have profitted from local events if you look at their complete history, they even fish out of a boat they won (a little 17 footer with a 90 horse so they are forced to be selective in what they fish or more of you would know of them). Second, I have made a great profit so far at this bass fishing sport (paying for most of my college education) so I know people are doing it out there.
I also agree with you Tcook on the need to tell the facts about the payouts so other anglers are aware of them because they don't look at these things! Finally, to agree with someone else I also think there is a problem when the tournament director makes more than 1st, that is why I will not fish BBT again.
I really hesitate to get involved in this discussion, because this topic is never resolved...However, if a tournament has a $100 fee and draws 40 boats, even if the directors take a little more off the top (and don't they have the right? I mean, it is their tournament), you will still make more for your time than a $100 fee tourney that draws 15 boats. And this topic is more about complaining than discussion and conveying information. Otherwise it wouldn't come up as much and get soooo heated.
I was looking over BBTs paybacks on the 3 opens they run, can someone explain to me why all three pay backs were largely different? I am confused why it wouldn't be the same percent for all of them.
From BBT entry form for opens:
"100'S are not Classic Qualifiers no membership required 90% payback plus trophies
ENTRY $100.00 TEAM OR SINGLE, Big Bass $10.00 per team optional"
Actual numbers for opens:
Memorial 100: 6300/7400=85%
BBT 100: 3150/4300=73%
Firecracker: 2250/2900=78%
Quote from: mikesmiph on January 31, 2010, 11:59:37 AM
Isn't it supposed to be fun? Why all this talk about money? If you can't afford it, don't do it. If you can, then have fun. If you don't like a tournament, don't fish in it. Maybe I haven't been around these tournaments very long, but it seems pretty simple to me. I'm just here to have fun. I don't have a single hobby that I make money at. This is just one more of them.
This is why I run Belleville Lake Bass Club tourneys at 100 % payback, no BS when it comes to money, me and the other 2 guys who run it, we all pay entry fees, all the guys know where the money goes and how much is payed out, if you need to make money off fisherman, try getting a JOB, I do this because i enjoy it and watching other fisherman come to the scales with huge smiles and nice limits, our classic is no entry fee and we have a banquet after the tourneys are over, we had close to 5800.00 last yr to pay out in our classic, so if you want to fish our tourneys, I will be posting when they start and our schedule soon thanks Doug Arter BLBC
How many boats do you guys draw for your tournaments? are you guys fishing the west-side like BBT does? How much are your enrty Fees?
Quote from: champion_206 on February 04, 2010, 09:35:28 AM
This is why I run Belleville Lake Bass Club tourneys at 100 % payback, no BS when it comes to money, me and the other 2 guys who run it, we all pay entry fees, all the guys know where the money goes and how much is payed out
Hey Doug - when I lived in NY I ran a Tuesday night trail - that is exacly how we ran it. 100% payback, I paid an entry just like everyone else. I bought the digital equalizer scale and all the stuff to run it. It was fun, I never would have dreamed of trying to take a kickback from the guys. I made my money by bringing big fish to the scale (well, some of the time). For these little trails (less than 40 or 50 boats) I have a problem with a director trying to profit off of the tournament or fish for free.
Quote from: TCook on February 03, 2010, 02:02:02 PM
I was looking over BBTs paybacks on the 3 opens they run, can someone explain to me why all three pay backs were largely different? I am confused why it wouldn't be the same percent for all of them.
From BBT entry form for opens:
"100'S are not Classic Qualifiers no membership required 90% payback plus trophies
ENTRY $100.00 TEAM OR SINGLE, Big Bass $10.00 per team optional"
Actual numbers for opens:
Memorial 100: 6300/7400=85%
BBT 100: 3150/4300=73%
Firecracker: 2250/2900=78%
I still cant figure out why these numbers differ so much? If 5 boats are fishing for free the percentage is still well below the 90%. Why would the BBT 100 be a lower payout than the firecracker which had less boats in this case? If the same amount of boats were fishing for free in each event it seems like the percentage would be lower with less boats. The only other variable I can figure is the amount of prizes given out at each event is different and BBT is counting those prizes as part of the cash payout and keeping the cash. Is this the reason or can someone clear this up for me?
Tim - they probably take a fixed fee off the top every time to cover "costs". They also might purchase things like trolling motors, hats whatever - I would guess that would account for the varying percentages. No one can really answer it but russ
I think you're right Tim and Justin it has got to be the cash equivalent of the prizes. They must be factored in to the overall payout. That is all I can think of anyway.
Cy
There is no reason to come to poorly conceived notions. Why dont you just call up Russ and ask him. Obviously no one on here will know the answer. Her is his number 616-875-7939. Im sure he can shed a little light on this subject. It could be as simple as a misprint, who knows. Oh wait Russ would. ;D ;D
I don't think it was a poorly conceived notion but I think I will refrain from beating this dead horse any further.
Quote from: TCook on February 04, 2010, 08:14:56 PM
I don't think it was a poorly conceived notion but I think I will refrain from beating this dead horse any further.
Ok maybe I should have said any PRE conceived notions.
Quote from: Performance Tuned on January 31, 2010, 10:15:30 PM
Your going to be banking off of that stupid membership fee that you are charging for that huron valley crap circuit your running. Don't think that you can fool us with your gibberish.
Yeah, nobody gets anything past you PT.....don't you have anything better to do??? What is your beef with Eric? From everything I have heard the 2009 Huron Valley Series was a huge success.
Let me guess, you are still sore over some sight fishing event that Bond smoked you at???
[/quote] This is why I run Belleville Lake Bass Club tourneys at 100 % payback, no BS when it comes to money, me and the other 2 guys who run it, we all pay entry fees, all the guys know where the money goes and how much is payed out, if you need to make money off fisherman, try getting a JOB, I do this because i enjoy it and watching other fisherman come to the scales with huge smiles and nice limits, our classic is no entry fee and we have a banquet after the tourneys are over, we had close to 5800.00 last yr to pay out in our classic, so if you want to fish our tourneys, I will be posting when they start and our schedule soon thanks Doug Arter BLBC
[/quote]
Thanks Doug...you guys run a great event and there is no better deal than 100%+ payback
These guys run tourney's cause they love bass fishing, if you are anywhere in SE Michigan, BLBC on Belleville Lake is the place to be on Tues. nights.
First, I've been fishing Tuesdays at Belleville for many seasons now. Seen the ownership change several times, sometime for worse, sometimes for better. Doug, Mark, Butch, and all the others have done a superior job since taking the helm. Belleville is unique in several ways. Great bunch of compadres, I look forward to seeing old faces each spring. Tough sticks too. Plus Belleville presents multiple fishing options each season; as Big JC once put it, you can almost play to your strengths on that lake.
We can hem & haw all day about how much anyone charges, but I have a basic and I believe fair personal rule about tournament paybacks; I have no problem with the TD making 15% of the take for the work they do. Money can be saved off the top of the paybacks for an end of season classic, and you can label the entry fees as such or call them membership fees, it doesn't really matter in the long run. As long as the TD doesn't make more than the 15% they earned by running the show, I'm satisfied.
Hey Doug/Mark/Butch/anyone else who cares: Mike & I are headed to Guntersville the week after Easter for the FOM National Championship. Any info from anyone whos been there would be greatly appreciated.
I don't understand why people bit** about entry fee, how much the TD keeps, the payouts, If You don't like how they run there tourneys DON"T FISH, don't belittle someone whos taking there time, away from family, or things they NEED to do ( cut grass) etc. to run a tourney circut, there not getting rich from doing this, I Fish alot of tourneys on erie and some out there are not the best payouts, but I fish cause I love to fish, worry about yourself and stop whining. If all I had to do was whine about who makes what and who does what I would STOP fishing. Hope to see alot of you in May on Belleville, and at Anglers Marine tourneys on Erie, Doug Arter