Great Lakes Bass Fishing Forum

Tournaments => Bass Tournament Tips, Techniques Talk & Ethics => Topic started by: UAWBigDog on December 24, 2008, 01:27:00 PM

Title: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: UAWBigDog on December 24, 2008, 01:27:00 PM
As we all know, dropshotting became legal in Michigan a couple of years ago.  Part of the regulations are that one can not fish a dropshot rig in drowned river mouths.  I guess that would mean that a dropshot rig can not be fished at the mouth of any river off of a lake.  That would mean that you can not fish a drop shot in front of the Clinton River, the Huron River, the Black River, etc.  Does this include the Detroit and St. Clair River's????  And how far out is considered a drowned river mouth????  Fifty yards, one hundred yards?????  The key question would be......Can a dropshot rig be fished in Muskegon Lake????  After all the whole lake is considered a drowned river mouth.  How about any lake that is like Muskegon????  The Michigan fishing regulations are not really clear on this.  What are the thoughts from the members of this forum????  And what do you have as a reference to argue this????  I don't just want opinions for answers here.  I want facts and statements backed up by facts.  I am not even sure the MDNR can answer this.  I will be visiting the MDNR booth at the Ultimate Fishing Show and asking these complex questions.  


BD            ;D
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: csfishslayer on December 24, 2008, 03:43:36 PM
Thats A great ? I have wondered my self. And your right they are not very clear about it in the book.
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: dartag on December 24, 2008, 08:13:37 PM
i was told Muskegon Lake was off limits when i inquired about fishing the one on one there.
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: DOWD on December 25, 2008, 12:01:00 PM
Drowned River Mouth Lakes listed on the DNR Website:

Drowned river mouth lakes listed by county: Allegan: Kalamazoo River and Silver Lake; Benzie: Betsie Lake; Manistee: Arcadia Lake, Manistee Lake, and Portage Lake; Mason: Pere Marquette Lake; Muskegon: Duck Lake, Mona Lake, Muskegon Lake,and White Lake; Oceana: Pentwater Lake, Silver Lake, and Stony Lake; Ottawa: Macatawa Lake and Pigeon Lake.outh Lakes are listed in the fishing regs and on the DNR Web site.
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: csfishslayer on December 25, 2008, 08:41:23 PM
I never seen that in the book. must have missed that page
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: UAWBigDog on December 26, 2008, 10:15:02 AM
I don't believe that it was in the book.  As you know the MDNR decided to print the book every other year to save money and not all the regs were published in the book.  It is however on the web based version of the book.  Well that takes care of drowned river mouth lakes.

How about my other questions.......like
1)  How far out from a river mouth can one fish a drop shot????  Fifty yards, one hundred yards????
2)  Are the St. Clair River and the Detroit River not included because they are connecting waters to the Great Lakes????
3)  How about the other rivers that feed Erie and St. Clair????  The mouths of these rivers are considered drowned river mouths and there is no drop shotting in these mouths.

Essentially what we have are "drowned river mouth lakes" and "drowned river mouths" and that is what csfishslayer is probably talking about when he said it wasn't in the book or on the website for that matter.  Validate this won't you, csfishslayer....because I never saw it the book either or on the website with any clarity.


BD              ;D
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: dartag on December 26, 2008, 05:34:16 PM
they used to Snag Salmon on the west side of the state.  they would rig a trebel hook almost the same as a drop shot.  here is a description i found. the river mouths listed are on the west side of the state.  guess it would not hurt to ask at the shows.

 "Snagging" is not legal, but "Lining" is.... Lining is bringing your line through the fishes mouth (because as salmon swim upstream they open and close their mouths regularly to assit them in breathing) and when resistance is felt you set the hook. The regulations state that you must use a hook that has a gap and point of 3/8 or less and is a single hook.
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: csfishslayer on December 26, 2008, 06:58:31 PM
yes thats what I was saying
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: UAWBigDog on December 27, 2008, 11:51:12 AM
"Snagging" and "lining" are entirely different than dropshotting and can not be compared to as the same.  Here is why.  "Snagging" and "lining" are horizontal presentations.  "Dropshotting" is a vertical presentation.  This is not mentioned in the MDNR guide.  However, after reading and researching the differences between the three techniques, the simple conclusion was horizontal versus vertical.  I got this out of several books that I own on Salmon fishing and other books about bass fishing and walleye fishing.  There is a fine line between horizontal and vertical........however the MDNR doesn't define this either.  

So therefore my three questions still stand:
1)  How far out from a river mouth can one fish a drop shot????  Fifty yards, one hundred yards????
2)  Are the St. Clair River and the Detroit River not included because they are connecting waters to the Great Lakes????
3)  How about the other rivers that feed Erie and St. Clair????  The mouths of these rivers are considered drowned river mouths and there is no drop shotting in these mouths.


I will ask these of the MDNR at the shows and am willing to post the answers here when I get them.  Any other thoughts are welcome as always.

BD                ;D
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: UAWBigDog on December 27, 2008, 01:01:15 PM
Still extremely vague to me as the three questions have still not been answered.  We are not talking about what the dnr considers snagging versus lining.  We are talking about how far out is a drowned river mouth, are the St. Clair River and the Detroit River excluded because they are connecting waters, and how about other rivers emptying into the Great Lakes.  I don't care about snagging or lining.  I care about fishing in front of the Clinton River with a drop shot rig and how far away from the last buoy do I have to be or is the river entrance where the rock opening is.  The focus of this post has been lost as the subject was changed to lining and snagging. 

I agree that I have also seen many bass being kept in tournaments that were hooked in the body and not the mouth.

Again we are not talking about snagging or lining for salmonoids.  We are talking about dropshotting for bass.  This subject is becoming more complicated than what I intended it to be.  If the MDNR kept drowned river mouths off limits to dropshotting because of salmonoids, that should have been indicated in the law.  And it is not.  The law is extremely vague to the species it protects or doesn't protect.  They use the term "fish" which to me means all fish.  But again the three questions I have posted still stands and have not been answered.  That is the subject of this post.

Again snagging and lining are horizontal presentations and dropshotting is a vertical presentation.  Those are the differences in my mind and what I have read in many different books and publications on fishing techniques which could probably be argued in a court of law. 

BD           ;D
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: bigjc on December 27, 2008, 01:29:57 PM
A "drowned river mouth" is basically a reservoir (man-made).  Detroit and St. Clair Rivers certainly are not.
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: UAWBigDog on December 27, 2008, 02:59:19 PM
A "drowned river mouth" is basically a reservoir (man-made).  Detroit and St. Clair Rivers certainly are not.

Not necessarily.  Drowned river mouth lakes are man-made reservoirs.  Detroit and St. Clair Rivers do have river mouths and drowned river mouths at that.  Deltas can be considered drowned river mouths and are in some cases.  Still this doesn't answer the three questions.

There are drowned river mouth lakes and drowned river mouths.  So what would be the definition of each case???  A very good question for the MDNR at the shows.  The book mentions both.  Sooooooo....which is which????? 

At one point or another I am going to be sorry for ever starting this thread...........  :-\'     ::)      :P     ;)     :-[


BD          ;D
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: thedude on December 27, 2008, 09:47:58 PM
The law says "and specific drowned river mouth lakes are protected."
then there is a list of drowned river mouths. Most of the rivers that run into lake michigan eroded away a lake. In these lakes you can catch salmon and steelhead through out the years. If you are fishing in a lake and it is not on the list then it is NOT a drowned river mouth.

Therefore, if its not on the list, not a river and not a stream you can use the drop shot... otherwise you must use the 3" dropper line.

As for the west side river mouths, the boundary between the lake and lake michigan is considered the beach line of lake michigan.. meaning you can legally fish a drop shot within the pierheads while still considered being on lake michigan as long as you are outside where the beach would be if it extended across the channel.


So to answer your questions:
1)  How far out from a river mouth can one fish a drop shot?Huh  Fifty yards, one hundred yards?
You can't fish a drowned river mouth. Its not a descpritor, but a list of places. If you are in one of those lakes you simply cannot fish this technique there. If the body of water is not on the list, it is not a drowned river mouth. You are either in the drowned river mouth lake or in the Great lakes, if you are in the river mouth lake then no DS. If in the Great lakes DS is ok.


2)  Are the St. Clair River and the Detroit River not included because they are connecting waters to the Great Lakes?
they are exceptions to the rule. They would fall under the "streams or rivers" clause so the law makes specific note that DS technique is legal on these specific waters.

3)  How about the other rivers that feed Erie and St. Clair?
They are rivers and streams and if the law makes no mention of them by name as an exception, then DS is not legal.

It seems very cut and dry to me.
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: UAWBigDog on December 28, 2008, 12:37:05 PM
Seems thedude has the answers.  Very good.  It is cut and dried when explained in a way that everyone can understand.  The vagueness (I wonder if vagueness is an actual word  ;)) of the law and how it is written leaves a lot open to interpretation.  I wonder how a judge would rule on this..........especially if he/she fished.   ;)

BD             ;D
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: UAWBigDog on December 29, 2008, 02:05:08 PM
Thanks to "thedude" for summarizing the facts previously stated in this thread. I was beginning to think I had missed something. Now all bass anglers will fish legally. Right? 8)
I don't know that any of them were facts as much as they seemed to be opinion.  Seems to me that what is written as law is still open to interpretation depending on who is reading it and how the person reading the law interpreted it.  As I said all laws are open to interpretation and the one who would make the final call would have to be a judge.  We can all interpret things in laymen terms.  I still interpret the meaning differently than others would.  That is the beauty of having a forum like this.  Hats of to djkimmel for having the forsight to creating a forum as this one.  It brings out the Rhodes Scholar in all of us.  After all we don't make the laws, we just read them.

BD           ;D
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: Waterfoul on December 31, 2008, 07:37:04 PM
I recently bought some of the perch rigs to use as drop shots in these drowned river mouths on the west side.  It's not a "line" but a metal "outrig" so to speak.  Are these legal then??
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: dartag on January 01, 2009, 10:22:51 AM
i had made some 3 way rigs with clear tubing to hold the bait out 3" from the 3-way swivel for Muskegon but did not make it to the classic to try them.  they looked good and worked on my lake like the DS.   
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: Got Fish?? on January 01, 2009, 10:53:14 AM
  My God men! What ever happened to us before electronics, cell-phones and dropshotting? We caught fiish we figured it out! Besides if it's too close to call . Do what any good angler would do, LIE".
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: UAWBigDog on January 02, 2009, 04:05:23 PM
  My God men! What ever happened to us before electronics, cell-phones and dropshotting? We caught fiish we figured it out! Besides if it's too close to call . Do what any good angler would do, LIE".

I don't think telling a lie is the answer either.  If you consistantly lie, then you will never really know what the truth is or you tell so many that you eventually get caught up in lying and then you can't remember what you told who or who you told what.  Good anglers don't lie, they put fish in the boat and take pictures of them.  If it is too close to call.............then don't say anything.  Somethings are better left unsaid. 


BD              ;D
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: Got Fish?? on January 03, 2009, 09:14:35 AM
 I guess you missed my point. Before dropshot was legal, We all put fish in the boat. Now that we can dropshot it is just another rig for catching fish. I understand that the boundries of the drowned river mouths are not clear. Maybe a vist to the D.N.R. table at the fishing show,will be a good idia.
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: Dan on January 03, 2009, 11:41:31 AM
It's been my experience that it is very easy to tell if an angler is lying. Just watch their lips. If they're moving they're lying.  ;)
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: UAWBigDog on January 03, 2009, 08:15:09 PM
The term "drowned river mouth" is not used in the law! There are only drowned river mouth lakes listed by name. Those lakes are affected by the law. Streams are also affected. The stream ends where the lake begins and vice verse. Marshy river delta flats with fluctuating water levels might lead to a more subjective interpretation. Nobody has yet mentioned such a waterway in this discussion.

Many of us have had to observe an off limits in the Clinton River at Harley because of the fish release area. The typical description from tournament officials is "point to point". That would seem to apply to almost all lakes and streams for the purpose of enforcing the gear restriction laws. I could easily point to the transition from the Huron River into Kent Lake, but Hades Creek into Hiland Lake might be a little tricky. I suspect officers and courts would understand this when enforcing the law. It might help to know the specific intersection to which you are referring. 8)

I appreciate that you have had a lot of input in this thread.  However, you have no conclusive reference except to the law that has been printed.  In other words, the law is open to interpretation depending on who is reading it.  I actually don't fish the dropshot much.  When I started this thread, my intent was to find out how everyone interpreted the law.  I fully understand what you are trying to say here, but I was looking for more fact based interpretations, not opinions.  Using the term "marshy river deltas" now brings the St. Clair River into the discussion.  After all, the St. Clair River delta has fluctuating water levels also, depending on how the wind is blowing.  Now we all know that the dropshot can be fished in the St. Clair River delta, that is why I was looking for more fact based data and not opinions.  If you read back into my original posting, I was inquiring about facts, not opinions.  So far, the only fact is the actual law that was printed here in this thread, however, all laws are open to interpretation by those reading them as I have already indicated.  The task at hand here seems to be asking the MDNR what their interpretation is.  At that point, we can say what is what. 

Tournament officials interpret the law the way they want to as you and I interpret the law the way we want to.  I would not take a tournament directors word on this as gospel. 

I will be asking the MDNR at the show what they mean and how they interpret that law.  I will try to post their answer.  We all may encounter a different MDNR officer at their table at the show.  This will be a great test for them to see if they are all on the same page.  It has been my experience that they aren't quite sure of interpretations on different issues either. 

On another point, the Hot Pond down in Monroe (Plum Creek) could be considered a drowned river/creek mouth.  Does that mean the dropshot is illegal in the Hot Pond???? 

I realize that this is a very controversial thread.  My intent is not to upset anyone.  My intent is to find out what everyone knows about this law and challenge us all as expert fishermen to know the laws as they are written.  So therefore our intent as fishermen should be to find out what the real deal is on this law.  It is still vague and open to interpretation.   ;)


BD          ;D
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: Waterfoul on January 05, 2009, 07:47:02 PM
First off, I am an AVID drop shot fisherman.  This technique has won me a lot of tournaments and good money over the last several years.  Therefore I've done some investigating.

As an aside... I've asked a couple different CO's about drop shotting in these restricted waters and they both said it was not legal, but that given the fact that this law is really designed to stop anglers from snagging salmon/steelhead/coho as they run the lakes and up the rivers they would not cite a bass fisherman for using the drop shot.  Does that make drop shotting a lake like Muskegon or White legal?  No, certainly not.  But this is why it is legal to fish the drop shot on lakes like Croton and Hardy Pond even though they are part of the Muskegon river.  No salmon.  But it makes it illegal to use the drop shot in any tournament that includes in it's rules that all local and state laws must be followed (which is every tourney I know!).

As for where does the river end and the lake start seems pretty cut and dry to me... even on some of the questionable lakes.  If you think you may be fishing in the restricted water you probably are.

As for the west side drowned river mouths (Musk, White, etc...) the lake ENDS at the pier heads per the same two CO's mentioned above.

If you read the above quotes from the Regs. it does have one flaw as I see it.  It simply says you may not have a weight suspended below any hook unless the hook is on an un-weighted line which is at least 3 inches long.  Is a jig considered a weight or a lure?  If you have a jig on the bottom and a drop shot hook up the line are you breaking the law???  This is THE question I will be posing to the next CO I talk to.  I have tried this method several times and have caught bass on both lures while doing so.  Haven't come up with a double yet, but I'm hoping for it!!
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: UAWBigDog on January 05, 2009, 10:56:54 PM
My apologies to UAW big dog. The DNR fishing guide contains a blatant and confusing edit!

Drop-shotting: Having a weight suspended below a hook that is tied directly to the main fishing line. This gear may be used on inland
lakes, Great Lakes, and Great Lakes connecting waters only. This
gear may not be used on rivers, streams, or drowned river mouths
(see Note 3, p. 8 for listing).


It should read "drowned river mouth lakes", just as it does in Note 3 and in the law as written. I should have proofread the fishing guide, too, knowing how our DNR can complicate things! It is safe to say they screwed it up. There is no such thing as a "drowned river mouth" as it relates to the law. Now I know what you were referencing.

Waterfoul,

You are onto something! I always wondered about the rig a certain pro was using in Michigan before drop-shotting became legal. The rig was even described during a television broadcast as I recall. That's why I mentioned the foul-hooked fish issue earlier. Getting tournament directors to enforce the rule requiring legal fishing methods and getting the DNR to define grey areas have always been concerns for tournament anglers. Is this a slippery slope? 8)

ebond,
Now you are getting what I mean.  See there are "drown river mouths" and "drown river mouth lakes".  These are two entirely different environments.  A "drown rivermouth lake" is a lake that comes before a river...........like Muskegon, White Lake, etc. as written in the regs.  Now a "drown rivermouth" is an entirely different creature as how I interpret this.  So how far out is the drown river mouth???  Where does it start???  So what I was saying is you can not fish in front of the mouth of the Huron River in Erie, but how far out???   That is the whole confusing thing about this reg.  Waterfoul puts a pretty good perspective on this by indicating that this was so that salmonoid snagging does not occur.  They keep in blatantly confusing so that they can prosecute to the full extent of the law which would probably be a pretty hefty ticket.  So by how the MDNR wrote this..........."should it say drown rivermouth lakes" or not.  They say or not because they can get you in both areas where salmonoids migrate to rivers to spawn.  Apology accepted.    :D     ;)     8)


BD                ;D
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: UAWBigDog on January 06, 2009, 04:57:53 AM
Don't try to interpret it. It is a typo. They flubbed. Bad editing. Now only us GLB forum readers are clear on the subject. The DNR may appreciate being notified of the confusion, or may not. 8)

Is it a typo????...........or bad editing.........or did they do this on purpose.  Perhaps we'll never know...............until someone gets one of those hefty citations................   ;)   I have read that dumb ordinance, reg, whatever, so many times I could probably now be a self proclaimed expert on the matter.  ::)          RRRRRIIIIIIGGGGGGHHHHTTTTT!!!!!!!

BD           ;D
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: Waterfoul on January 06, 2009, 07:17:11 PM
Big Dog... Slippery is right!!!

And as I understand it... the river ENDS at the line from point to point.... outside the points it is now the LAKE.  This comes to me by simple difinition.  A river has defined banks and moving water.  A lake has defined banks an non-moving water.
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: thedude on January 06, 2009, 09:44:55 PM
the guide is not the law. the LAW is the law and specifically states the drowned river mouths are a specific list of lakes. While the guide does add to the confusion, it is not the official verbiage that a court would be required to adhere to.
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: Waterfoul on January 07, 2009, 08:23:21 PM
Does anyone really thing a drop shotting offense would ever end up in court?  For that matter... has anyone ever known anyone who's been cited for drop shotting in those drowned river mouths???  I don't.
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: dartag on January 07, 2009, 08:52:37 PM
my  concern was not being able to use it on Muskegon lake during a tournament.  i would probably use it fun fishing but would not want to get DQ'd or Protested.. 
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: Waterfoul on January 08, 2009, 08:39:38 AM
my  concern was not being able to use it on Muskegon lake during a tournament.  i would probably use it fun fishing but would not want to get DQ'd or Protested.. 

Agreed, and this is why I brought up the jig at the bottom system as Muskegon is where I've been experimenting with it.  It's also why I bought the 3" perch rigs.  I'm still playing with this one but I think it will work and be legal.  Drop shotting is a huge part of my tournament arsenal and I hate being without it.  I fish several tournyes on both Muskegon and White Lake so you can see my concern!!
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: UAWBigDog on January 10, 2009, 01:05:07 PM
Big Dog... Slippery is right!!!

And as I understand it... the river ENDS at the line from point to point.... outside the points it is now the LAKE.  This comes to me by simple difinition.  A river has defined banks and moving water.  A lake has defined banks an non-moving water.

I agree with that however some would say that the river starts at the outer buoys.  I believe that this is so vague and over compensated for that the judges can't rule on it.  I hope no one ever has to go to court on this...........or gets a citation so they would have to appear in court.  Too vague, too wordy, too confusing, too unclear.  Laws have to written clear and concise in my opinion.  That is why I started this post.  To find out how everyone interprets this thing.  Again, too vague, too wordy, too confusing, and too unclear.   :o

the guide is not the law. the LAW is the law and specifically states the drowned river mouths are a specific list of lakes. While the guide does add to the confusion, it is not the official verbiage that a court would be required to adhere to.

No it doesn't.  It lists drown river mouth lakes, but also talks of drowned river mouths as entrances to rivers.  These are two different things.  Please read this again very, very, very carefully because I thought the samething you did.  Now when I started researching this over a year ago I found out that drown river mouths and drown river mouth lakes are two entirely different things.  And the guide is not the law.  It is a set of "guidelines" to follow and nothing more.  My lawyer who is an avid fisherman has helped me understand this.  And he has taken it to his judge friends that he has been in front of during is law career.  I have a wealth of knowledge and resources and your right these judges don't clearly understand this thing either.  Too vague, too wordy, too confusing, too unclear.  That is pretty much what these men have said.  So you decide.

Does anyone really think a drop shotting offense would ever end up in court?  For that matter... has anyone ever known anyone who's been cited for drop shotting in those drowned river mouths???  I don't.

To answer the first question I would say I hope not.  The next question is great.  Does anyone on the board know if there as been anyone cited for this offense while fishing for bass???  Please speak up.  We all would love to hear from you and tell us of your experiences.

Peace out my bassfishing brothers!!!!!     8)

BD         ;D
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: Durand Dan on January 10, 2009, 03:51:24 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejbz4RVh0oU  ;D
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: cr on January 10, 2009, 05:32:40 PM
 ;D ;D ;D LMAO  !
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: UAWBigDog on January 11, 2009, 08:41:21 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejbz4RVh0oU  ;D

What are you trying to tell me here Dan???? ;D

Anyway I did talk to the MDNR at the show and there is a difference and meant to be a difference between drown river mouths and drown river mouth lakes just as I thought.  Now I have to contact the fisheries division to clarify one other question I had as to where the drown river mouth starts.  We seem to already be clear here on drown river mouth lakes.  I will post that when I get that answer.

Durand Dan............what are you trying to tell me here????  The horse isn't dead yet!!!!   :o

BD      ;D
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: UAWBigDog on January 12, 2009, 06:07:38 PM
My reference is a MDNR officer at the Ultimate Fishing Show who told me that they are two different things.  He defined a drowned river mouth as just a river mouth where the lake meets the river and a drowned river mouth lake as a lake at the mouth of a river.  He even pulled out a regulation book and explained the difference in great detail.  He seemed to be pretty knowledgable on the subject.  He did however indicate that no bassfisherman has been cited to this day.   

Remember that laws and ordinances as well as MDNR Regulations are open to interpretation.  That is why we have lawyers and judges.........and he said that too.  If it was all cut and dry, we wouldn't be discussing this issue on the board.  Remember, too vague, too confusing, too unclear, too many words.   8)

BD           ;D         
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: LGMOUTH on January 12, 2009, 06:41:50 PM
Not to change the subject but since we are talking about the law and fishing then I have to bring up this question. Here is a line from one of the posts that caught my eye.

Rivers, it shall be unlawful to use the following gear during the period August 1 – May 31:
1. Multi-pointed hooks exceeding 3/8 inch between point and shank and/or single pointed hooks exceeding ½ inch between point and shank;

Does this mean that if you use a extrawide gap hook on the St clair river or any other river for that matter illegal after august 1st. Or am I reading it wrong which is very likely.
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: UAWBigDog on January 12, 2009, 08:14:15 PM
UAW,

That's why we don't ask those guys to explain the laws they are told to enforce. It sounds like complete fabrication! If it is not written, it is hearsay. Thanks for proving my theory! 8)

ebond,

Are you a lawyer???  If you are, I want you to defend me in a court of law if I get a citation for fishing a dropshot in front of the Clinton River can 3 depending of course how far out the drown river mouth is at can 3.  I always catch a 5lber there at the end of the day fishing Wayne's St. Clair Craw (free ad for Wayne) dropshot tube on a drop shot rig.  Usually I can usually upgrade my bag a couple of pounds.  Put me in the money last year a couple of times.   

I wonder if I will be disqualified in a tournament for getting a citation for fishing a dropshot there and getting a citation???  Would you care to answer that Counselor???? 

BD            ;D   
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: motocross269 on January 12, 2009, 09:45:45 PM
Holy Crap    :o......You guys need to go fishing BADDDDDD!!!!!.....C'mon soft water....

Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: UAWBigDog on January 14, 2009, 09:10:19 PM
Laws are never plainly stated and I have never seen one plainly stated.  And when they are........it is a mistake.  They are always open to interpretation.............. 8)

BD          ;D
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: Got Fish?? on January 15, 2009, 07:25:48 PM
  Hey  BigDog, Lets dropshot. what ya say you dropdown to my place and do a shot.
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: djkimmel on March 05, 2009, 03:11:10 PM
Did everyone bone up on the original work, explanations and actual Fisheries Order posted on the Conservation, Legislation board? http://www.greatlakesbass.com/forum/index.php?topic=47.0

All fishing guides and similar summaries have language that states they are not the law. To know the law, you have to read the specific written order / legislation. All laws / regulations will always have areas open to interpretation and further clarification through the courts if necessary. You can't get away from that with any law / regulation / order.

I was sitting there with the MDNR as we discussed the interpretation of the overall issues and much of it is on the thread above. The specific 'drowned river mouth lakes' are specifically listed in the Order. The understood interpretation from that meeting was that the entire body of water known as the specifically listed lake(s) was off limits to dropshotting.

The Detroit River, St. Clair River and St. Mary's are specifically defined in regulations and the fisheries guide as part of 'the Great Lakes and connecting waters' so always fall under that heading unless a specific exception naming them specifically is spelled out. There is no such exception in the dropshot order.

In the Fisheries Order thread, I spelled out all the interpretations that I had been asked for up to that point with the answer from the official spokesperson from the MDNR. You may get a different answer from a local person, but that will only do you good when dealing with that specific person. You have to get an official answer from the MDNR spokesperson for the involved department. I will only list answers with statewide or similar broad ramifications on this site when I have received the official spokesperson response.

If you are outside of the mouth of a river, or one of the drowned river mouth lakes specifically listed in the Fisheries Order, you can dropshot. If you are inside the mouth (last land points), then the possibility exists of a ticket and/or getting protested in a tournament. There may be definitions that make that seem gray, but you are either outside of and fishing outside of the river, or you are inside or fishing inside. Different people may interpret what that exactly means one way or the other, but the point is, if you have any doubt, play it safe and do something else.

The MDNR met us more than half way on this issue and I think we can live with it, even without squeezing every possible inch of water out of where you can fish. If and when snagging becomes less of a problem in the eyes of the MDNR, we can look at the issue again.

If you have a specific location you want to fish a dropshot and you aren't sure about it, send me a question and I will see about getting you the best available answer. And no, the MDNR does not have plans to ticket non-snaggers for dropshotting. Don't snag or look like you are snagging, and you should be fine. BUT, if you are in a tournament, most tournaments have rules about following all state laws, so you could rightfully be protested and dq'd. When in doubt, don't dropshot.
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: UAWBigDog on March 05, 2009, 04:03:42 PM
That is exactly what I tell my kids.............when in doubt, don't do it!!!!  Thanks for putting that in perspective DK.   ;)


BD          ;D
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: djkimmel on March 05, 2009, 11:41:30 PM
I hope your kids are good listeners :)
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: UAWBigDog on March 06, 2009, 06:02:02 AM
So do I............ :-\'


BD                 ;D
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: Got Fish?? on March 06, 2009, 10:22:08 PM
 OK bigdog, Are you ready to go fishing now? Lets go put some fish in the boat. Got my boat back today. I'm ready to go dropshotting,drifting and draging,jiging,crankbaiting,tubing and trolling. Heck I'll even treat you to Long John silvers. Thanks DK for chilling out BG. Maybe now he will start getting his head into this years season.
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: UAWBigDog on March 07, 2009, 12:09:40 PM
Heck I'll even treat you to Long John silvers. Thanks DK for chilling out BD. Maybe now he will start getting his head into this years season.
   ::)   ::)   ::)  Season isn't here yet and besides I always fish more days than you and catch more fish than you.........even from the back of your boat.   I even have to correct your grammar and spelling!!    8)   You think I am going to let you end my streak now?!?!?  I think not.......... :-\'

What ya say you dropdown to my place and do a shot.

I still haven't gotten that shot yet............... :o


BD               ;D
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: Got Fish?? on March 15, 2009, 06:48:17 AM
 well come on down anytime. You would not catch so many fish out of the back of my boat. If I did not want you too. Besides your a good angler and I enjoy your company.
Title: Re: Drop Shotting and Drowned River Mouths
Post by: UAWBigDog on March 15, 2009, 11:25:50 AM
well come on down anytime. You would not catch so many fish out of the back of my boat. If I did not want you too. Besides your a good angler and I enjoy your company.

If B.S. were music, you'd be a brass band.   :o

BD              ;D