Great Lakes Bass Fishing Forum

Tournaments => Opens & Other Bass Tournament Circuits => Topic started by: Jason Ammerman on January 26, 2007, 11:33:36 PM

Poll
Question: How much should tournament Directors Put in there Pockets?
Option 1: 0%
Option 2: 5%
Option 3: 10%
Option 4: 20%
Option 5: More%
Title: Tournament Pay back
Post by: Jason Ammerman on January 26, 2007, 11:33:36 PM
Do you know how much tournament directors are keeping? Don't you think we should know?
Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: BASS FISHERMAN on January 28, 2007, 09:28:26 AM
this is verrie good questiun jason ammerman!! ??? ???
i thinks tourrnie monnies are skim off the top in mannie curcuts indeed butt the $$$$dollor$$$$ amounts is the questiun ??? ???
i vote the 20% on yur poll!!am i close??
some curcuts skim monnies off the top for classic funds ;) ;) ;) boats an such ;) ;) ;)
whtas you think bout this??
OUT LAW BASS goin to be better??

:-* :-* :-* RANGERS BOAT RULE :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: Genie on January 28, 2007, 10:24:03 AM
Why does there always have to be someone that has to stir the pot when it comes to tournaments?

If you don't like a circuit, how it is run, the director, etc. - don't fish it.

Stop stirring the pot or at least go back to LSCN and stir that pot.

-Genie
Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: gr@ssmonkey on January 28, 2007, 12:03:27 PM
if nobody stirrs the pot it will burn........(us)
Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: Jason Ammerman on January 28, 2007, 12:07:27 PM
sounds like someone is a tournament director! I don't have a problem with directors making money I want to Know how much of my $ I am fishing for at the ramp. The paybacks have gotten smaller and the cost have gone up. I don't want to hear about all the great prizes that are given away. I have yet to win a prize at a tournament that I could Use. 1 jig head a pack of 6 diferant worms and a sticker is not a good give away. I think we all do this for the same 2 reasons, thie love of the sport and to get back some of the money that we spend on it. With most tournaments out there you cam barley break even!
     If the directors are doing such a great job they should be able to pay back close to 90% at the ramp. and make there money off the membership fee's, and the sponsor money. and if WHAT do i get for my membership any way, at least with BASS and FLW I get a mag. The rest of the tournaments you get CRAP!




Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: Jason Ammerman on January 28, 2007, 12:21:12 PM
EXAMPLE= I fished a tournament in the fall last year on a small lake near my house, I will not mention the name of the tournament. I don't want to ruffel any feathers. Note I do not blame the director of this tournament he was just paying what the Organization told him to pay, he just followed orders.

There were 9 boats @ $125.00 each that included big bass.
They paid 1st place only @ $625.00 Big bass was $90.00 that totals $715.00 total pay out.
They took in $1125.00.
Some one made $410.00 for the day. The director at the tournament probly got $3.00 a boat and the rest went to the home office.

Thats more than most of the guys fishing make in a week at there jobs.

Thats to much money for one 9 boat tournament!
Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: BASS FISHERMAN on January 28, 2007, 12:41:54 PM
this is a good things that you do jason!!fishin peeople has the rite to no whuts goin on ;) ;) ;) sume of them tournie surcuts are makin out big time with fishurmans $$$$$  one prize yous fourgot to mention is those nice mercury hats ;D ;D ;D i has a mercury but not of them dan optic max :o :o :o i can think of one curcut thats has 100 boats and thay pay out the looong places but with low dollar amounts!!then give out thoose nice hats like i ststed above along with bags of worms,oil an the like ;) ;)
winners shoold be gettin the payday and the hats an stuff shoold be givin out at sineup time ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: djkimmel on January 28, 2007, 12:50:18 PM
A tournament organization is a business. There are a few circuits that are run by overworked volunteers, but the long running ones are usually the business ones.

Each business comes up with their own business model that they believe will make them successful and keep them running longterm.

If they are right, they get participation and are successful. If they aren't right, they don't make it. If they are growing, then a large number of anglers are obviously happy with what they are doing and how they are doing it.

I would say, for example, a circuit drawing 100 boats is doing something right. If you personally don't like how they do things, there are other circuits - go fish them. That's why there are other circuits. If the original circuit keeps drawing boats, that just means that others are happy with their setup. The circuit will NOT change their business model and setup because of one or two people, only if their participation goes away. We can all see for ourselves who's growing and who isn't.

Payback is just one factor people consider when they choose a circuit. Lake, dates and times often are more important to the overall success than payback. I think number one is good rules, fairly and consistently enforced. I've seen circuits vanish more because of a real or perceived unfairness than I have because of payback.

Put too much emphasis on the 'stars' and you will suffer the regular guy (he/she will stop fishing your events). Seems like many people can accept a balance of things like how you treat your stars verses everyone else, how much you payback including prizes, how you enforce your rules and your lakes and schedule.

I think the good tournament organizations recognize that many anglers want and expect different things, so they either choose to try to balance everything, or they purposefully choose to 'specialize' knowing they will attract some anglers and not others.

There's nothing wrong with asking general questions on here about what angler's expect or would like to see - it might actually help some people to see some opinions - AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT GET PERSONAL.

The problem isn't with opinions and mature debate - the problem is if it turns into a complaint about a specific organization or person. That changes nothing and accomplishes nothing other than get a lot of people worked up. Just keep it real and remember that we all have our own opinions that may or may not be the majority opinion.
Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: Dan on January 28, 2007, 02:04:01 PM
Well said Lt. Dan. The Tear Drop has been in operation for around 25 years probably longer. It has always been a 100% ramp payback plus a classic that for the last 10 years has paid around $5,000. We have a small group. Usually around 25 boats up and down from there depending on the year. As was mentioned, it is run by a small group of overworked volunteers. I no longer am involved with the running of the tournaments and have the luxury of just fishing. However, having been one of the overworked volunteers for years I have no problem with paying a tournament director. How much is always a question. Small 20-25 boat tournaments aren't going to generate any kind of director fee that would make anyone give up there day job. If you run the bigger tournament groups, you're going to have to have a larger rake. Nature of the business. I would hope tournaments would, if ask, tell you the % of payback. Then again, as was said, fish them or look elsewhere. Even on the west side there are a lot of tournaments to pick from.
Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: Jason Ammerman on January 28, 2007, 02:47:00 PM
This is not aimed at the small clubs. Without the small clubs bass fishing would not be were it is today. This is aimed at the larger groups that advertise national sponsors, boat give aways, and miss lead fisherman to think that you get more than you do. As far as the take it or leave it statement, That's fine but when there are organizations putting on 600 events in Michigan It is hard even for the small groups to draw a good amount of anglers to there tournaments, because you can't find a lake or date that is not taken by some outher group.
       As fisherman we need to stand up and tell the directors that we want more than what we are getting. If it was not for the fisherman the directors would not have the sponsors. They get $ because we show up for the tournaments. BUT WHAT DO WE GET? The chance to fish for 60% to 70% of the money that we put in come on do the math. It dose not add up.
       If all of the tournaments are so good and the fisherman get back what is right then put it on this site.
      If you are a Owner of a tournament series or you work for one as a director. List your Real Pay back here. Not what you could win in prizes or or crap we want to see the CASH numbers. I know the guys we are talking about are reading this. If you have nothing to hide SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: bosshawg on January 28, 2007, 03:09:24 PM
every year same old stuff. gets tiring guys. if so questionable, become a TD and find out for yourself.......not a easy task even at a small club level. TD and staff(if any) they do the running around to get sponsors, give aways, etc. darn straight they should get something in return. like other post said don't fish circuit that you have questionables on. that easy - GIVE IT UP!!!!!

peace & bass wishes  :)
Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: djkimmel on January 28, 2007, 03:10:14 PM
My point I want to be very clear on - if they are drawing the participants, then you are not in the majority and they will not change just for you or just for a few guys.

They will operate their business how they feel they need to and if they are meeting the needs of enough anglers, they will be successful. I will not blame them for doing what they feel they need to be successful.

You've made your point about what you personally want to see. If you've been reading on other boards, then you know already they will not be meeting your request, so please do not use my board for trying to force something that we all already know will not happen - definitely not this way.

I understand you and some others may feel if you keep up some pressure, they'll eventually give in, but I think would then be ignoring that they continue to grow and be more successful. That should be clear enough that what they are doing is working. Therefore, they have no reason to change what they are doing at this time.

The problem with this thread is that it is obviously aimed at a specific organization. This is a horse that has already been beaten dead many times over. You have every right to believe in certain things, but they also have every right to do things the way the feel they need to. Let's respect those differences and move on.

I believe you mentioned a new circuit you will be supporting that better meets your own personal needs. Sounds like a good way to find what you are looking for in a circuit. If there are a good number of other anglers looking for what the new circuit offers, then they'll draw anglers. You can use the Other Tournaments board here to talk about the circuit and schedule to help get the word out.

I would add that no one circuit can dominate all the lakes and dates. Even under the new procedure for 2007 there are limitations in how many permits or holds one group can put on a lake early in the year. Get your dates and lakes figured out early and put in the requests. Be ready for next year too because we'll be able to request permits on November 1, 2007 for 2008.
Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: Jason Ammerman on January 28, 2007, 03:48:02 PM
This has not been focused on one group, just tournaments in general. I am new to the board and did not relize that this has been coverd. Just thought I would see if anyone else feels the way I do. Who are the guys trying to shut this subject down, I can't tell who they are behind the alias names. No reasone to stop asking questions.
Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: djkimmel on January 28, 2007, 05:08:38 PM
Again, general discussion is okay, but everyone who has been around knows who you are talking about and has seen this topic beaten to death over on lakestclair.net already for a couple years now to no positive gain.

I don't want GreatLakesBass.com to become another forum that repeatedly beats the same few topics to death for a few people's entertainment or unknown motive at the expense of the majority of members who don't like or enjoy those kinds of things.

You may have missed all the 'fun' over on lakestclair.net, but a lot of us here didn't miss it and don't want to head down that road again. It drives people away. I don't want to drive anyone away including you.

I won't shut any thread down as long as it is within the rules and spirit of a friendly and productive board.
Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: MBell on January 28, 2007, 05:24:56 PM
Jason, this crap get stirred up every winter.  It always starts the same then it gets out of hand.  It does nothing to effect that organization, just wastes the moderators time.  I know you said this was about tournaments in general, but everyone knows who your are talking about.  I personally don't fish that trail anymore based on your points amongs other things that have happened.  The best thing to do is just fish other trails.  I feel that a tournament organization should post their cash at the ramp payout % and any decent trail with sponsors should be able to handle at least 90% payback.  I also think that the free entry is enough compensation for the directors of local trails.  If the director is being paid beyond the entry fee they shouldn't be fishing, just my opinion. 
-Matt     
Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: djkimmel on January 28, 2007, 05:37:44 PM
And let's leave it at that.
Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: motocross269 on January 28, 2007, 06:01:39 PM
Try motocross racing if you want to get the shaft on payouts..I could go into details, but I won't...Bass fishing pays WAAAAAAY more, and you aren't at a really high risk for injury. 
There are only a small percentage of people that can make a living at their hobby in any sport..When we are young we have this star in the sky feeling that we are going to be a pro and set the world on fire.  More then likely it isn't going to happen.  Just be glad that you have the health and financial means to compete...And as Dan put it..If your not happy move on...If you are in it for the money chances are you are going to be sorely dissappointed. Take a look at what the middle of the pack pro Bass fisherman makes (FLW tour level)...You would make way more working at Home Depot.  Tournament fishing is suppose to be fun..the money is just a bonus. Promoters have to make a profit or there won't be any tournaments to fish.
I am new to Tournament fishing, and this is just my observation from what I have seen on this Forum..Money, Money, Money....Have fun, Fish Hard..And the Money will come.
Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: BassWidow on January 28, 2007, 06:12:20 PM
It seems quite simple to me.  When you hand over your entry fee you are basically stating that you are in agreement with the tournament rules, procedures AND payout.  Why do you think it's your business to know how much a director earns?  Maybe you'd like to tell us all how much you make at your job? 
Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: Jason Ammerman on January 28, 2007, 06:38:51 PM
Again this is not about 1 tournament trail! And I would like to know what I am fishing for NO one except BFL, BBT, and Top Bass tell you what you are fishing for at the end of the day. I can't belive that any of you go to the local garage and tell them just fix my truck with out getting an idea of what it is going to coat.

WHY DON'T WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW WHAT IS GOING TO BE PAID BACK AT THE END OF THE DAY.

WHY DON'T SOME OF THE TOUNAMENTS POST THE PAY BACK WITH THE RESULTS.

I don't want to start a problem and for you guys that don't care what the pay back is you just want to fish fine, I would like to know what the the return is on the money I am spending.
Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: BryanP on January 28, 2007, 07:13:07 PM
Jason, in one of your earlier posts you mentioned that these organizations get "sponsor money".  I can tell you for a fact that very few, if any of the organizations you are referring to get cash.  It's mostly prizes.  I agree with you in that I could also care less about most giveaways (tackle packs, etc...), altough it is a nice surprise to win a drawing for a trolling motor or a gps unit.  In general, I really don't think giveaways are that big of a draw, even though it is something that organizations like to promote.  So most of the "income" comes from membership fees and entry fees.  Most of the local events seem to pay back 80% of entry fees.  Quite honestly, you couldn't pay me enough to run a tournament circuit.  You're always going to have someone po'd about something.  If you're in it to make money, fish the big tournaments and don't mess around with the 9 boat tournaments.  Even then, unless you win (like a BFL), it's still hard to make a lot of money.  Every tournament I've fished has given payback and number of places at the pre tournament meeting.  Or at least most of them have.

Really, the first thing I look at when deciding to fish a tournament is the lake.  Entry fee and payback are secondary.
Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: Genie on January 28, 2007, 07:49:14 PM
Well,
I guess that since I threw the first clump of mud back at Jason, I should try to end the slinging as well.

Many excellent points have been brought up by other members and by you Jason.  But, this topic really should be put to bed once and for all because it is really getting old.  As Dan stated, these posts have been hashed out for years and the circuits in question have only been getting bigger.  So, in their case, the business model is working and yours is not.

I am a tournament director - and no I am not going to tell you what I make per tournament ... for that matter, no other director will either.  Get over it!

I know, have fished against you more times than I can count and I respect that you are an excellent fisherman.  Knowing that I also would suspect that you just don't enter tournaments for "the good of the competition".  I don't either.  I enter to win.  I always know that when I enter a tournament that you are in that I better bring my "A" game.   

I know you say that your comments are really for the good of tournament angling and that payouts should be posted, etc.  I don't understand when you say you don't know what the payouts are ... every tournament I run and pretty much all the ones I fish state with a megaphone or a scream at the time of payout what the place, weight, and payout are ON THE SPOT.  But again, I know you.  You fish tournaments to win - to make money.  I'm sorry, you are NOT going to make enough money fishing these tournaments.  I'll give you a free copy of The Angler's Genie so you can track your expenses to prove it to yourself.

So, getting on to more positive things.  I started tournament fishing because I love to fish and have fished my entire life.  I used to play sports competitively, but can't anymore because of too many injuries, but that competitive desire is still there.  So, I combined the 2 and started fishing tournaments.  It took me many years to actually win money at a tournament and I was absolutely sitting on cloud 9 that night.  I thought I was the man!!  I was unbeatable .... well, that feeling didn't last long, but the confidence and joy did.

Well, over the years since then I have had some success so I can't complain.  But I have to keep telling myself what it is that I am doing ... I am fulfilling 2 passions by tournament fishing and not trying to balance my check book. 

I just don't believe that you are making statements about payout for the "good of the angling community".  I think deep down you want to be paid better when you do well.  And you probably should because you are a very good angler and you are at the top in many tournaments!

The tournament trails you are commenting about, unfortunately are not created for that reason.  These tournaments are created so anglers can enjoy something they love, hang out with buddies, compete, fulfill whatever it is that keeps them coming back, and yes - to get paid .... all so they can rub it in their buddies' faces at the next tournament.  Fair compensation is definitely a part of paid competition.  I think the majority of the tournament anglers you are trying to defend fell they are being treated fairly.

If you want more money - go fish the bigger tournaments.  As Dan says, those circuits have a business model that supports your goal.  The ones you are commenting about do not.

-Genie
Proud NBAA Tournament Director 

Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: silverminnow on January 28, 2007, 08:16:44 PM
Hey Genie,

Thanks for your post.  I to am an NBAA director and proud of it.  I started my division to fish lakes closer to home and to allow anglers from beginners to experienced a local tournament where they can come and have a great time.  Any angler I know that is fishing weeknight tournaments will tell you that they spend more than they make even with first place.  Especially with gas prices, insurance, boat payments and etc... 

I don't direct my tournament to make money. The little that I do make has always gone back into my tournaments, ramp fees(up until this year) and into making my tournament trail the best it can be.  If I showed you the money that I spend versus what I make to run the tournament you would have me committed.  Again, it isn't about the money that I run a tournament and at least for my anglers it isn't about the amount of money that they win it is the good time, the competition and the camaraderie.  I have a couple of anglers that have never won money and they come back year after year because they love to fish and have a great time. 

I agree with you that if you are looking for a paycheck, the bigger tournaments are where you want to be.  With that being said I fish the bigger circuits as well.  I am not the best guy out there but I am always getting better by watching and listening and trying new things.  I haven't broke even in the big tournaments either but I keep going back because I love it.

In the end no matter what trail you are fishing they all cost money to run.  I know the NBAA puts alot of money back into their members with the classic, the magazine, the give aways, the dinners at the classics and much, much more.  Guys if you are that concerned about the money don't fish these small tournaments.  Look at the other end of the spectrum.  How about the guy that never wins and knows that when certain anglers are there they probably won't.  They don't complain about you taking their money when you when and if they don't keep showing up then their money won't matter anymore and the payouts will be less because you have no more boats.

With extreme respect I would say, If you need the money you win that badly maybe you should work overtime or get a second job or fish bigger tournaments with the big money and leave the average angler alone to lose money and have fun. 

Thanks again Genie and hopefully we can put this on going controversy to rest.

A second proud NBAA director
Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: Jason Ammerman on January 28, 2007, 08:35:49 PM
I don't know how you think this was a bash nbaa post. I fish every tournament that comes to the west side of Michigan Shoreline, BBT, Bass Anglers United, Top Bass, NBAA, BFL, FOX 101.3, Super Bass, and more. They all have the same problem. But after reading all the post I guess I know why. WE LET THEM DO IT AND ARE FINE WITH IT!

I will put it to rest.

If any of you feel the same way I do keep posting maybe some one will read these post and change something.

I don't feel that not talking about it is the way to fix the problem.

And I will take that copy of angler genie and I will pay for it.

Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: LGMOUTH on January 28, 2007, 08:36:51 PM
 I don't want to get into the middle of this but there are a few things that need to be said.

First there is a difference between 70, 80,90 or 100% payouts and 70,80,90 or 100% payout at the ramp. Most tournament curcuits that I checked on payout 70% at the ramp. They payout ano ther 10 to 20% at there classics or fishoffs which make them a 80 or 90% payout tournament trail. I checked out the BFL, BBT and yes NBAA which I am a director, and they all payout roughy 70% at the ramp. That extra 20% for the classics is well worth it on any tournament trail. If we are paying roughly 10% of our entry fees to have great directors (like me) and great tournament trails like the ones I have stated above, Thats great. If your going to complain about the 70% payback at the ramp then you should look at the bigger picture. If you dont want to fish a classic then maybe these trails including the BFL, BBT, and NBAA shouldnt be on you priority list. It also doesnt mean that we should complain about these tournaments because they dont cater to our every need or wants.

And as for not knowing what you are fishing for, In NBAA the tournament director dont know how much is getting payed out until the last team is signed in which in most cases is about 5 to 10 minutes before you launch. And in any NBAA tournament or any tournament for that matter that I have been to all you have to do is ask ahead of time and you will get your answer. Also if you listen at weighin tournament directors say what place and how much each team gets. Then you can add it up yourself.

We all know it costs alot of money to fish and to run a well organized tournament trail. Why do we complain about things that we don't totally understand. Who pays for 100 to 150 or more sets of scales, who pays for the permits that we have all had to get, who pays for all of those weighin bags, who pays for all of the gas put in the cars to go get those product or cash sponsors, who pays for the airline tickets to travel to who knows where to talk to 10 sponsors and only get 1, who pays for the time spent doing all of this and 1000 more things so that you can fish a tournament. There is a lot more into running a big organized tournament trail than paying out 100% of the money.

I for one am glad to pay any tournament director, boat check person, weigh master, Bump board guy, person that rights down weights, check in person, person that releases the fish, the computer programmer that makes the results website, the organization or what ever or who ever is involved , for the chance to have fun and compete with the rest of you without any problems like we would have if all of these people werent there.

As it has been said time and time again, If you dont like it, dont fish it.

Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: BryanP on January 28, 2007, 09:48:51 PM
Jason, posting on here isn't going to change the business model for NBAA, CATT, ABA, BASS, FLW/BFL, or anyone else.  I guess if you think a 100% payback at the ramp is feasable, and it can be run as well as an NBAA, CATT, BASS, FLW/BFL, etc...  then do it!
Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: Jason Ammerman on January 28, 2007, 10:07:50 PM
You guys don't get what I am trying to point out. I have no problem paying to fish. I would not do it FOR free. But what is wrong with knowing wear your money is going. And what to expect before you pay the entry fee. The Super Team, FOX 101.3, BFL, and Top Bass all have a Sample Pay Back to show You.

I have a feeling that if most of the guys knew what the real deal was they would start to ask more questions.

AGAIN I AM NOT BASHING JUST NBAA. You NBAA guys are the ones getin bent out of shape on this deal.(WHY)
Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: LGMOUTH on January 28, 2007, 10:28:28 PM
 I guess We just dont understand why you would put out a sample payout for 200 boats when there wouldnt be any chance to reach 50. But I guess if you cant figure it out I guess this might help.

PAYOUT based on 90 boats
1st 639
2nd 289
3rd 176
4th 143
5th 119
6th 99
7th 95
8th 88
9th 82
10th 75
11th 68
12th 62
13th 55
14th 51
15th 44
16th 42
17th 40
18th 38

add it up 70% at the ramp       based on 35dollars entry fee.
Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: silverminnow on January 28, 2007, 10:31:58 PM
Hey Jason,

I am not bent out of shape.  I guess I could do a sample pay back for my guys.  I wouldn't know an exact until we launch based on the number of boats that show up.  For instance, if I have 15 boats, I pay down 3 spots.  1st place would be $184.00, 2nd place would be $110.00 and 3rd place would be $74.00.  This is based on the $35.00 entry fee for the tournament only.  Big bass and the divisional classic fund make up the other $7.00 for the total of $42.00 to fish my weeknight tournament.  These are last years pay outs from June 5, 2006.  I also make sure that I announce how much each place is getting as I announce the winners in that spot so that all of the other anglers know the money is getting back into the hands of the anglers in the right amounts.  I hope this helps as a sample of what you are looking for.
Title: Re: Tournament Pay back
Post by: djkimmel on January 28, 2007, 11:02:10 PM
Well - there you go. Isn't that all we really ever get on all those flyers and applications?

I don't think anyone is bent out of shape. I do think some of us are tired of the same old tired topic every winter on bass tournament forums all over the place (up north anyway).

I think most guys who have been around know the score for the tournaments they choose to fish - and that is the real point - they choose to fish the various tournaments and circuits.

It always comes down to the same answer - find the circuits/tournaments that meet your need and fish them. There are plenty out there. That's why there are plenty out there. Something for everyone.

It makes a lot more sense to find all the choices that do meet your needs than trying to change the ones that don't meet your needs when they WON'T be changing. They are obviously meeting many anglerss needs, which is working for them.

I don't blame any tournament director for being sensitive, particularly when you are obviously the leading everyman circuit at the moment - you are going to attract lots of attention, and it won't all be good.

There is a competition among circuits for your business and some circuits make the same mistake some anglers do, trying to force one thing to happen when all they have to do is decide who they want to attract and design a circuit that will meet those anglers' needs. If you run the right the circuit with the right setup, you'll attract your share.

This is a bash free board - don't BASH ANYONE. State your opinion once, because everyone here is smart enough to get it the first time, and then move on. I think we'd get farther if instead of using examples of existing circuits - that most likely won't be changing - is to go at this kind of topic from a future wish list instead of a past-oriented 'why do they do it that way' post. Maybe someone will think - hey, there's a market for that kind of circuit, and they'll start a new one to meet your need?

Lets give this topic a breather. It has been beaten so much the past few years, I'm having serious deja vu - the names have changed, but the words are all the same. I don't want it to turn personal or into outright bashing. I'd suggest the future circuit wish list approach on another thread.